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  • The "National" argument has no merit

    Over the past few days the "National" argument has been used several times in varios threads. For the uninitiated that is the position that Japanese players can't be inducted to the Baseball HoF in Cooperstown because they didn't play major league baseball. This "argument" has NO MERIT. As Jim Albright has shown, other than the name, the HoF has no formal rules barring players who didn't play in North America from being inducted. So please stop using this useless argument. :o

    Ok, carry on...
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 04-04-2006, 10:46 AM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    Can't argue with that.

    Unless, of course, someone wants to argue protectionism.

    Wouldn't be the first time that word reared its ugly head in the same sentence as the United States of America.
    "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
    Carl Yastrzemski

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
      Over the past few days the "National" argument has been used several times in varios threads. For the uninitiated that is the position that Japanese players can't be inducted to the Baseball HoF in Cooperstown because they didn't play major league baseball. This "argument" has NO MERIT. As Jim Albright has shown, other than the name, the HoF has no formal rules barring players who didn't play in North America from being inducted. So please stop using this useless argument. :o

      Ok, carry on...
      "No Merit" in your opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by runningshoes53
        Can't argue with that.

        Unless, of course, someone wants to argue protectionism.

        Wouldn't be the first time that word reared its ugly head in the same sentence as the United States of America.
        Protectionism, eh? Isn't that the reason why Sadaharu Oh, etc. never played Major League Baseball? Because the baseball powers that be did not allow it?
        Based on how the museum is currently set up, and the apparent mission statement they have in being a history museum for baseball at the national level, what purpose would it serve to induct Japanese players? Is there a reason to expand their horizons? Is Babe Ruth in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame?
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        • #5
          The rules for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame do clearly state the following, though:

          3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

          A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
          Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
          Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
          That excludes from eligibility anyone who didn't appear in the majors in the US. Some exceptions have been made for Negro Leaguers. I don't see it being carried over to players from other countries.
          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
            Protectionism, eh? Isn't that the reason why Sadaharu Oh, etc. never played Major League Baseball? Because the baseball powers that be did not allow it?
            Based on how the museum is currently set up, and the apparent mission statement they have in being a history museum for baseball at the national level, what purpose would it serve to induct Japanese players? Is there a reason to expand their horizons? Is Babe Ruth in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame?
            You probably already know this, but you rarely find protectionist attitudes embedded in written policies.

            Very few people around here offer good arguments for not "internationalizing" Cooperstown. All I ever read is: it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and that reeks of protectionism.

            The Japanese are very protective of their culture and that's probably why you won't find The Bambino in their Hall as well. It's culture is one of ingrained racism so I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

            Having said that, I've never really like the "tit for tat" attitudes in any issue.
            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
            Carl Yastrzemski

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mike D.
              The rules for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame do clearly state the following, though:



              That excludes from eligibility anyone who didn't appear in the majors in the US. Some exceptions have been made for Negro Leaguers. I don't see it being carried over to players from other countries.
              Then why should it be carried over even to Negro Leaguers? when the HoF originally opened Negro Leaguers were not even considers. Can you imagine of if someone would have advocated for the Negro Leaguers in the 1930s. That idea would have been ridiculed.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • #8
                The reason that the issue of Negro Leaguers in the HoF came to forfront was because of Ted Williams' HoF speech. He argued for the Negro Leaguers in his speech. That was amazing. This started the floodgate to include Negro Leaguers. Before Williams speech there was not much thought about this.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  Then why should it be carried over even to Negro Leaguers? when the HoF originally opened Negro Leaguers were not even considers. Can you imagine of if someone would have advocated for the Negro Leaguers in the 1930s. That idea would have been ridiculed.
                  Because MLB recognized it's protectionism disllowed so many great ball players the opportunity of playing within its ranks.
                  "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                  Carl Yastrzemski

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by runningshoes53
                    Because MLB recognized it's protectionism disllowed so many great ball players the opportunity of playing within its ranks.
                    However, when the issue came about in the 1960s many still were not moved by this argument, Ford Frick being one. He argued that regardless of the unfairness of the black players not beign allowed to play major league baseball, they shouldn't be allowed in because they were simply not eligible by the HoF rules. Man, those silly rules...
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by runningshoes53
                      You probably already know this, but you rarely find protectionist attitudes embedded in written policies.

                      Very few people around here offer good arguments for not "internationalizing" Cooperstown. All I ever read is: it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and that reeks of protectionism.

                      The Japanese are very protective of their culture and that's probably why you won't find The Bambino in their Hall as well. It's culture is one of ingrained racism so I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

                      Having said that, I've never really like the "tit for tat" attitudes in any issue.
                      Of course, you're right on all points, Troy.
                      While there is not a good reason for not "internationalizing" the baseball hall of fame, what is the reason to do so. Bear in mind why the Hall of Fame was started to begin with, the reasons why it is in Cooperstown, and the fact it is a museum geared toward baseball played in this country. It has never portrayed itself as anything beyond that.
                      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                        However, when the issue came about in the 1960s many still were not moved by this argument, Ford Frick being one. He argued that regardless of the unfairness of the black players not beign allowed to play major league baseball, they shouldn't be allowed in because they were simply not eligible by the HoF rules. Man, those silly rules...
                        I agree....there are a lots of silly rules.

                        One need look no further than the 2nd amendment to understand your country's love of silly rules.
                        "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                        Carl Yastrzemski

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                          Then why should it be carried over even to Negro Leaguers? when the HoF originally opened Negro Leaguers were not even considers. Can you imagine of if someone would have advocated for the Negro Leaguers in the 1930s. That idea would have been ridiculed.
                          The negro leaugers are a special case. Since they were not allowed to play in major league baseball, their league became pretty much the highest level they could play at in the United States. Basially, it became, in essence, a Major League. It's a bit of a play of words to fit in the rules, but I think considering the nasty history of race relations in baseball and the country as a whole, it's a worthwhile exception.

                          Now, why the big push to induct players from other countries? Are other countries asking for this? They have their own Hall's of Fame. Why should we think that inductuction into Cooperstown is somehow a "better" honor for those players?

                          Plus, it's a logistical nightmare. Who would vote for these players? What leagues would you include? And more importantly, once you increase the size of the Hall of Fame by that much, where do you put everything? It certainly won't fit in the current building in Cooperstown.
                          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mike D.
                            The negro leaugers are a special case. Since they were not allowed to play in major league baseball, their league became pretty much the highest level they could play at in the United States. Basially, it became, in essence, a Major League. It's a bit of a play of words to fit in the rules, but I think considering the nasty history of race relations in baseball and the country as a whole, it's a worthwhile exception.

                            Now, why the big push to induct players from other countries? Are other countries asking for this? They have their own Hall's of Fame. Why should we think that inductuction into Cooperstown is somehow a "better" honor for those players?

                            Plus, it's a logistical nightmare. Who would vote for these players? What leagues would you include? And more importantly, once you increase the size of the Hall of Fame by that much, where do you put everything? It certainly won't fit in the current building in Cooperstown.
                            Again no one is arguing for this. We are talking about expanding the HoF to include the Japanese Leagues only, for now at least. We are talking about only considering the greatest Japanese Leaguers, which is not that many in the first place.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by runningshoes53
                              I agree....there are a lots of silly rules.

                              One need look no further than the 2nd amendment to understand your country's love of silly rules.
                              I personally have never owned a gun and proably never will but I have no issues with the 2nd amendment. What's the law in the Philippines? I did a quick read of the Phillipine Constitution and I found no mention of right to bear arms or any limitiations on bearing arms.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment

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