y'all win!

[Tigerfan1974]

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but as I spend most of my time in this forum, I figured why not.

I just wanted to let you know that y'all win.
Evidently there is no room here for individual opinion and thought.
If you don't agree with the frequent posting/popular members you get chastised and black balled.

Well, RMB and HWR and 538280/Chris, you win.
You have sucked out all the enjoyment I had when I discovered this site.
I know longer visit as frequently and I post even less frequently because either I have lost interest, or I know my opinion doesn't matter!
If one disagrees with one of you, that one is not worth the time of day.

I wonder how many of you have black listed my postings so you don't have to be bothered by them.

You can only knock someone down so many times before they learn not to get up again.
I have learned.

I may visit again as a guest to read, but I think it will be a while before I post again, if ever. Congrats to you all on your exclusivity club victory!

Thanks to Chancellor and CCN for trying to be an arbiter at times.
See you around. (probably not)
TF1974

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but as I spend most of my time in this forum, I figured why not.

I just wanted to let you know that y'all win.
Evidently there is no room here for individual opinion and thought.
If you don't agree with the frequent posting/popular members you get chastised and black balled.

Well, RMB and HWR and 538280/Chris, you win.
You have sucked out all the enjoyment I had when I discovered this site.
I know longer visit as frequently and I post even less frequently because either I have lost interest, or I know my opinion doesn't matter!
If one disagrees with one of you, that one is not worth the time of day.

I wonder how many of you have black listed my postings so you don't have to be bothered by them.

You can only knock someone down so many times before they learn not to get up again.
I have learned.

I may visit again as a guest to read, but I think it will be a while before I post again, if ever. Congrats to you all on your exclusivity club victory!

Thanks to Chancellor and CCN for trying to be an arbiter at times.
See you around. (probably not)
TF1974

Tigersfan,

This is a debate forum. There will be disagreements. The best thing to do is to learn from them. Shoot, many disagree with me here all the time. Just go check out the Sadaharu Oh threads where I am getting pounded by just about everybody. But I don't take it personally. I take it as a chance for me to learn something new. I have learned a lot. If you leave it seems to me you are admitting that you don't want to learn something new. It seems to me that you rather stay with your own beliefs and not even consider other ways of thinking or other possibilities. I hope you come back and I promise I will be nicer.

[RuthMayBond]

It's not about "winning"

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but as I spend most of my time in this forum, I figured why not.

I just wanted to let you know that y'all win.
Evidently there is no room here for individual opinion and thought.
If you don't agree with the frequent posting/popular members you get chastised and black balled.

Well, RMB and HWR and 538280/Chris, you win.
You have sucked out all the enjoyment I had when I discovered this site.
I know longer visit as frequently and I post even less frequently because either I have lost interest, or I know my opinion doesn't matter!
If one disagrees with one of you, that one is not worth the time of day.

That's not the point at all. The point is, if you're gonna say something unconventional you MUST support it. I probably said stuff like that when I started but I learned WHY people were saying what they were saying. And if there's no reasonable basis for what you're saying, admit you may be wrong.

<I wonder how many of you have black listed my postings so you don't have to be bothered by them.>

Never for me. That's only for people who harass and you have never done that. Tigerfan, why don't ya stick around, try to learn, and give a basis for what you say? We're not gonna buy just anything, but there are others who have interesting opinions *cough EH burgess cough* and they stay. Most all of us have learned and changed things that we thought are true, why can't you do the same? Believe me, most other boards are WAY worse. You seem like a nice guy, I'd hate for you to leave h

[digglahhh]

Okay, who wants to see why I'm probably not a favorite to be nominated for Mod?...

Tigerfan,

Was that post necessary? Get off your soapbox and give up the pity ploy. You don't want to post here any more- don't. No need to announce your resignation.

Did you expect that you would find widespread support for Mickely Lolich to the HOF?

If you have conviction about your opinions then defend them, if you don't want to debate then avoid contraversial topics.

You think you are the only person to have your views attacked? You bring up Chris the younger? Geez, he takes as much heat for his positions as anybody.

The more "fringe" your opinions are, the more evidence you must have at your fingertips to support them. Trust me, I know this very well. The more radical the opinion, the greater the burden of proof. You have to be willing to embrace the onus of doing more work than your opponents when you take the unpopular side in a debate.

I came here pretty adversarial about some of the prevailing beliefs on this site and I still am. But, I won the respect of most of the regulars with my knowledge and posts to the point that they don't just automatically dismiss something I say, even if it sounds radical.

The truth is, many of the members here probably don't feel that you have passed the pre-conditions needed to persuasively challenge their opinions.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I really don't know what you expect out of this site, TigerFan, but a good number of the people who regularly post in the History and Hall of Fame forums would have to be considered scholars in regards to baseball. They have studied it intensely, more so than the average fan or even the die hard single team follower. Which is why when someone comes in with theories that may not seem as well researched as what the "regulars" have come up with, they're going to want to see the basis for it. If you don't provide that, which we see from those who are of that scholarly mind set, it's going to be tough to convince them of your view point. It's like someone who read Romeo and Juliet in the fifth grade and watched Mel Gibson's version of Hamlet trying to discuss Shakespeare with Doctoral candidates. Everyone has different theories. But what goes into those theories is what will earn respect.
There is a reason I don't post all too often in the above-mentioned forums. I know baseball, but I would never pretend I know it like these people unless I could stand behind what I know fully. It's not a knock, it's the nature of the beast of this jungle. I accept that and sit back and learn. It's not a bad idea.

[KCGHOST]

This is a tough place to hang out when all you have for evidence is "I saw him play". We appreciate that you love the game and your Tigers, but if you refuse to consider the modern objective methods of player evaluation this is probably not the right place for you.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Okay, who wants to see why I'm probably not a favorite to be nominated for Mod?...

Tigerfan,

Was that post necessary? Get off your soapbox and give up the pity ploy. You don't want to post here any more- don't. No need to announce your resignation.

Did you expect that you would find widespread support for Mickely Lolich to the HOF?

If you have conviction about your opinions then defend them, if you don't want to debate then avoid contraversial topics.

You think you are the only person to have your views attacked? You bring up Chris the younger? Geez, he takes as much heat for his positions as anybody.

The more "fringe" your opinions are, the more evidence you must have at your fingertips to support them. Trust me, I know this very well. The more radical the opinion, the greater the burden of proof. You have to be willing to embrace the onus of doing more work than your opponents when you take the unpopular side in a debate.

I came here pretty adversarial about some of the prevailing beliefs on this site and I still am. But, I won the respect of most of the regulars with my knowledge and posts to the point that they don't just automatically dismiss something I say, even if it sounds radical.

The truth is, many of the members here probably don't feel that you have passed the pre-conditions needed to persuasively challenge their opinions.

I nominate digglahhh for a moderator position! His "no-nonsense" persona would bring some order to BBF.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I nominate digglahhh for a moderator position! His "no-nonsense" persona would bring some order to BBF.

digglahhh shows one can be candid without being abusive. Sorry, digglahhh, your nomination-inspired speech has not hurt your candidacy.

[DoubleX]

Tigerfan, I never "black listed" you, and I doubt most people here have. Yes, some of us can be more aggressive than others and put too much value (like all) in objective statistical analysis. I for one welcome views derived from firsthand experience as I think it helps to add some perspective and flavor to our discussions. I, like some of the other younger members here, never saw a lot of these players we debate play. We don't know firsthand how they dominated or how they were perceived during their careers. So in that respect, first hand accounts are very valuable, IMO.

However, as others have noted, objective statistical analysis is here to stay and there is no way of getting around that on these boards. I believe there is plenty of room for objectivity and subjectivity in this because the cold statistical objectivity will often not capture the entire picture (a recent thread on Mantle being the best AL 1Bman in '68 comes to mind as a good example of the limitations on cold objectivity analysis). I put a lot of weight into stats, but I recognize the limitations, particularly given my own exposure, and I try to temper my positions with other considerations. Thus, firsthand accounts have value to me.

I know things can get frustrating at times when you are in the minority, but you just need to have confidence in your approach and take what everyone else says with a grain of salt (so long as they are discussing the subject matter and not making personal attacks, that's a different kettle of fish and no one should make personal assaults here). So please, reconsider, stick around, speak your mind, be open to debate, and perhaps you'll even find a way to harmonize your approach with some of the other approaches used by members here.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Tigerfan, I never "black listed" you, and I doubt most people here have. Yes, some of us can be more aggressive than others and put too much value (like all) in objective statistical analysis. I for one welcome views derived from firsthand experience as I think it helps to add some perspective and flavor to our discussions. I, like some of the other younger members here, never saw a lot of these players we debate play. We don't know firsthand how they dominated or how they were perceived during their careers. So in that respect, first hand accounts are very valuable, IMO.

However, as others have noted, objective statistical analysis is here to stay and there is no way of getting around that on these boards. I believe there is plenty of room for objectivity and subjectivity in this because the cold statistical objectivity will often not capture the entire picture (a recent thread on Mantle being the best AL 1Bman in '68 comes to mind as a good example of the limitations on cold objectivity analysis).

I know things can get frustrating at times when you are in the minority, but you just need to have confidence in your approach and take what everyone else says with a grain of salt (so long as they are discussing the subject matter and not making personal attacks, that's a different kettle of fish and no one should make personal assaults here). So please, reconsider, stick around, speak your mind, be open to debate, and perhaps you'll even find a way to harmonize your approach with some of the other approaches used by members here.

To follow up on yet another invitation to stay, you have a welcome home in the Tigers forum. If Donald has stuck around there this long . . .

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but as I spend most of my time in this forum, I figured why not.

I just wanted to let you know that y'all win.
Evidently there is no room here for individual opinion and thought.
If you don't agree with the frequent posting/popular members you get chastised and black balled.

Well, RMB and HWR and 538280/Chris, you win.
You have sucked out all the enjoyment I had when I discovered this site.
I know longer visit as frequently and I post even less frequently because either I have lost interest, or I know my opinion doesn't matter!
If one disagrees with one of you, that one is not worth the time of day.

I wonder how many of you have black listed my postings so you don't have to be bothered by them.

You can only knock someone down so many times before they learn not to get up again.
I have learned.

I may visit again as a guest to read, but I think it will be a while before I post again, if ever. Congrats to you all on your exclusivity club victory!

Thanks to Chancellor and CCN for trying to be an arbiter at times.
See you around. (probably not)
TF1974

TF,

Admittedly, I'm not fully aware of your history with these, guys, but from my own experience, they're good guys. They're just passionate about their beliefs, and are perhaps on the extreme side of requiring you to "back up" your opinions. Doesn't make them bad guys, and doesn't mean they dislike you personally. Heck, they'd probably buy you a brewskie and shoot the crap with you if the opportunity presented itself.

If you post things in an abrasive way, or know you believe something, but don't really have the "ammo" to back it up, I would suggest you bring up the topic in more of a "requesting information" form, rather than a flat out "debating" form. See where it goes from there. This should be about learning brotha ! You shouldn't leave. Stick around.

I'll leave you with 2 quotes to ponder, from Sir Winston Churchill.

-- "Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."

-- "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

[RuthMayBond]

-- "Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."

-- "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

Geez, Sultan, now I'm gonna have ta start liking you

[Honus Wagner Rules]

TF,

Admittedly, I'm not fully aware of your history with these, guys, but from my own experience, they're good guys. They're just passionate about their beliefs, and are perhaps on the extreme side of requiring you to "back up" your opinions. Doesn't make them bad guys, and doesn't mean they dislike you personally. Heck, they'd probably buy you a brewskie and shoot the crap with you if the opportunity presented itself.

If you post things in an abrasive way, or know you believe something, but don't really have the "ammo" to back it up, I would suggest you bring up the topic in more of a "requesting information" form, rather than a flat out "debating" form. See where it goes from there. This should be about learning brotha ! You shouldn't leave. Stick around.

I'll leave you with 2 quotes to ponder, from Sir Winston Churchill.

-- "Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."

-- "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

Gee, Sultan I didn't know you were so literary. My opinion of you has gone up a few notches (it was high already).

[538280]

Well, TigerFan, I'm sorry if I offended you but if you're going to make wild claims you'd better be ready to back them up with OBJECTIVE evidence. Not just "I saw him play and he didn't seem so great to me." Frank Thomas didn't seem so great to you? Fine. You don't have to put him as high as others do. But, you can't let your subjective feeling get out of hand and proclaim him not a HOF player. That's where the statistics come in.

[justice22]

i just find it ironic that everyone is posting. since he said he's quitting, we should probably move onto more important things, like signing a petition telling roger clemens not to retire until he's 75, or something else...i'm sure we could just close this post and move on...