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  • billy herman

    Here's a Hall of Famer you don't hear much about, at least nowadays. Underrated or overrated, worthy or not?

  • #2
    I think he's rated just about right, neither over or under (though if anything, I'd pick under since he is never really discussed). I think he's a solid lower tier Hall of Famer, perhaps a little better than that. I do have non-Hall of Famers, Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich, and Lou Whitaker ranked ahead of him, but I don't think Herman is that much behind and see their exclusions as a much much bigger mistakes than his inclusion.

    It's kind of funny. Whenever I make my 2B rankings, I tend to just completely forget Billy Herman, no idea why. He just seems very forgettable despite being a one of the 15 best 2Bman of all-time, IMO. So I always have to go back and insert him in and bump most everyone else down a spot.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 04-06-2006, 12:14 PM.

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    • #3
      My 2B list:

      1) Rogers Hornsby
      2) Joe Morgan
      3) Eddie Collins
      4) Napoleon Lajoie
      5) Jackie Robinson
      6) Ryne Sandberg
      7) Charlie Gehringer
      8) Rod Carew
      9) Craig Biggio
      10) Roberto Alomar
      11) Joe Gordon
      12) Bobby Grich
      13) Lou Whitaker
      14) Frankie Frisch
      15) Jeff Kent
      16) Billy Herman
      17) Nellie Fox
      18) Bobby Doerr
      19) Tony Lazzeri
      20) Larry Doyle

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      • #4
        yeah, he is a guy you tend to forget for whatever reason. a small part of that for some people is that he has a rather generic name that might cause him to be confused with someone else. i wouldn't be surprised if he made a lot of top 10 2b lists through the 70's. without analyzing it much, at first glance, he's sorta comparable to frisch and alomar in terms of what type of player he was. not exactly comparable but rather similar.

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        • #5
          I think he is a bit underrated. He was one of the greatest defensive second baseman of all-time. Has the N.L. record for most put-outs by a second baseman in a season with 466. Also was a pretty good hitter batting a career .304 with his career high being .341. And was one of the best ever at the hit and run. Had 10 all star game apperances out of 13 full seasons. Pretty unknown but a good HOFer.
          go sox.

          Pigskin-Fever

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          • #6
            One problem in the way people see Herman comes from the fact he missed two years near the end of his career to military service in WW II.

            In advocating his case for the BBF HOF, I wrote the following:

            He has 134 Gray Ink points, which is 120th all-time.

            He is 16th among second basemen in the latest BJHA in career win shares, 13th in the total of his best 3 seasons, and 12th in his total for his best 5 consecutive seasons. His career win share total, despite losing two years to military service, is 173rd best among all players. He also was a ten time all-star, all of them coming consecutively. That's consistent excellence, folks. Isn't that what a Hall of Famer should be?

            Of those ahead of him, Biggio and Alomar are not yet eligible for BBF HOF (Alomar will be in November), and we've elected Morgan, Collins, Hornsby, J. Robinson, LaJoie, Sandberg, Carew, Gehringer and Frisch. Those eleven are responsible for the vast majority of the better marks. Kid Gleason gets him twice, but only because he had a fine year as an 18th century pitcher. That leaves Grich. Really, they're tied (Grich is 3 points ahead, actually) except for Grich's 31 point lead in Win Shares versus Herman's 94 point lead in gray ink. I take Herman in that comparison.

            All of the above doesn't give Herman any credit for the two years he lost in the service during WW II. With those two years, he would have been likely to reach 2600 hits (around 70th all-time) with the significant kickers of 1) being a second baseman with 2) a career .300 average. Give him two more years, and his career win share total is almost surely in the top 130 all time, as he's only 23 away from that. Twenty three win shares is the level of a marginal starter for two years.

            Jim Albright
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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            • #7
              He's a lower level guy to me, but not a mistake. Like others here I wish more consideration would have been given to Gordon, Grich, and Whitaker.
              Last edited by KCGHOST; 04-06-2006, 02:05 PM.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DoubleX
                It's kind of funny. Whenever I make my 2B rankings, I tend to just completely forget Billy Herman, no idea why. He just seems very forgettable despite being a one of the 15 best 2Bman of all-time, IMO. So I always have to go back and insert him in and bump most everyone else down a spot.

                I know exactly what you mean XX. When i occasionly edit my rankings of players, the first thing I do is just quick glance at HOFers, and I always see Herman and go "Wow, how could I forget to have him on my list," but it turns out he was on the list. I think this is due to what Fro said about his "generic" name.

                Wow XX, just looked at your top 10 closer, and I realized we have the exact same people in out top 10, just switched around in places.

                1.Eddie Collins*
                2.Joe Morgan*
                3.Rogers Hornsby*
                4.Jackie Robinson*
                5.Nap Lajoie*
                6.Rod Carew*
                7.Charlie Gehringer*
                8.Craig Biggio
                9.Ryne Sandberg*
                10.Roberto Alomar*
                AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                AL Pennant: 1982
                NL Central Champions: 2011
                NL Wild Card: 2008

                "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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                • #9
                  --Wow, maybe its Frankie Frisch thats really the underrated one. I can't see him out of the top 10, but he is below that twice already in thsi thread. Does he get demerits for his negative influence on the VC ?

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                  • #10
                    I have him as 11th if that makes you feel any better. :P
                    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                    AL Pennant: 1982
                    NL Central Champions: 2011
                    NL Wild Card: 2008

                    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --Wow, maybe its Frankie Frisch thats really the underrated one. I can't see him out of the top 10, but he is below that twice already in thsi thread. Does he get demerits for his negative influence on the VC ?
                      Yeah, I admit, I probably underrate Frisch a little. He did play in the 20's, so his numbers are not quite as good as they look, and for some reason, I don't like him too much. Don't know why. Subconciously, it might have something to do with the VC stuff. At the very best, I can't really see moving up any higher than 11th.

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                      • #12
                        Yeah Herman gets lost in the shuffle, but he did everything you wanted a middle infielder to do back then. Deserving Hof who should get more attention than he does.

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                        • #13
                          Happy 110th birthday...a deserving HOF.
                          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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                          • #14
                            Here’s how I see second basemen.

                            At the top are the big five: Collins, Hornsby, Lajoie, Morgan and Robinson.

                            The next level includes Cano, Carew, Frisch, Gehringer and Gordon.

                            My next tier includes Alomar, Barnes, Biggio, Grich, Herman, Randolph, Sandberg, Utley and Whitaker.

                            After that we’re looking at Childs, Doerr, Kent, Kinsler, McPhee, Pedroia and Richardson at the bottom of the HOF line.

                            Just below that line I have Doyle, Dunlap, Evers, Fox, Lazzeri, Lopes, McDougald, Myer, Pratt, Stanky and Zobrist.

                            I probably spend too much time thinking about this, but my point is that Herman is solidly in the center of HOF-caliber second basemen.
                            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                            • #15
                              Hardy Richardson is a pretty under the radar 19th century player. Solid list.

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