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  • Originally posted by willshad View Post

    It's basically the makers of WAR taking the traditional numbers and making them mean whatever they want them to mean.
    Another legacy of the advanced stats influencing the sport is the lack of emphasis on making contact. Working counts leads to long games and walks are boring compared to hits. There is no urgency or entertainment to a slow trot to first base.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by willshad View Post

      It's basically the makers of WAR taking the traditional numbers and making them mean whatever they want them to mean.
      As opposed to other people who take "the traditional numbers and [make] them mean whatever they want them to mean".
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
        As opposed to other people who take "the traditional numbers and [make] them mean whatever they want them to mean".
        We each have out own definition of value. To me it certainly isn't just decided by ' how much fictional runs above a fictional replacement player this guy created if all my made up adjustments and guesses happen to be close to correct'.

        I'd rather use traditional stats, thank you.

        Comment


        • Rolen had exactly ONE season where he had any real MVP consideration
          Rolen is one of the all-time fielding 3B ever. He should already be in the hall.

          You are inconsistent, as Yogi Berra's MVP votes meant nothing to you, but now Rolen's do.
          This week's Giant

          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

            Rolen is one of the all-time fielding 3B ever. He should already be in the hall.

            You are inconsistent, as Yogi Berra's MVP votes meant nothing to you, but now Rolen's do.
            Originally posted by willshad View Post
            Rolen is kind of in the same boat as Wright, though, in that he really didn't do much after age 29. He had a great year in 2004 and it looked like maybe he had become a huge star..then kept getting injured and being inconsistent. I would say Wright had more years where he was a star player (1.07 MVP shares compared to just .57 for Rolen).

            If Wright is 1/2 of George Brett, then Rolen is probably 2/3 of Adrian Beltre. Neither guy is a HOFer.
            Rolen was also well recognized from the beginning - with a RoY and a gold glove his second season - and throughout his career despite the low MVP shares. He spent his prime on very bad Phillies teams that I grew up watching as an 8-13 year old. He wasn't getting any MVP support on that club. Pujols was going to get all the MVP consideration for the Cardinals success. It's tough to top an all-time top 5 first baseman that hits .330/40/120 with 40 doubles and 120 runs every season. I'm not sure how you could have been following baseball throughout the 00's and don't think Scott Rolen is at the very least a serious HoF candidate.

            Anyhow among third basemen Rolen is:

            Counting stats:
            • Hits - 23rd
            • 2B's - 6th
            • HR's - 15th
            • RBI's - 14th
            • Runs - 16th
            • bWAR - 9th
            • fWAR - 12th
            • Off. Runs - 12th
            • Def. Runs - 5th
            Rate stats:
            (min. 4000 PA)
            • Avg. - 54th
            • OBP - 34th
            • SLG - 11th
            • OPS - 12th
            • OPS+ - 22nd
            Chrome & Leather:
            • ASG - t-10th (7x)
            • GG's - 3rd (8x)
            • Hit .421 in 2006 World Series win.
            • Hit .310 in the 2004 NLCS. One of the greatest postseason series ever.
            • 4th third baseman ever to have 2000 hits, 500 doubles, 300 home runs and 1200 RBI with Schmidt, Brett and Jones.
            Last edited by bluesky5; 10-16-2018, 04:17 PM. Reason: willshad...
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

              Another legacy of the advanced stats influencing the sport is the lack of emphasis on making contact. Working counts leads to long games and walks are boring compared to hits. There is no urgency or entertainment to a slow trot to first base.
              This is very true, but we need to understand why. Players are not doing this JUST to make their advanced stats better. They do it because that is the type of player they are, and that type of player is now coveted by general managers who want to win. If following these metrics did not lead to real world wins then they would not have been picked up on because they are so different than what is traditionally seen as valuable. That was the whole point originally. Teams were competing for hundreds of millions dollars with hugely disparate budgets and needed to be efficient as possible.

              An unintended result of this push is longer games, So how do we change it back? What rules do we add that will move the incentives away from working counts without change the core rules of the game?

              "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

              -Bill James

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                This is very true, but we need to understand why. Players are not doing this JUST to make their advanced stats better. They do it because that is the type of player they are, and that type of player is now coveted by general managers who want to win. If following these metrics did not lead to real world wins then they would not have been picked up on because they are so different than what is traditionally seen as valuable. That was the whole point originally. Teams were competing for hundreds of millions dollars with hugely disparate budgets and needed to be efficient as possible.

                An unintended result of this push is longer games, So how do we change it back? What rules do we add that will move the incentives away from working counts without change the core rules of the game?
                • Lol, I know man.
                • I know they work. It's just that the style of play it leads to isn't aesthetically pleasing.
                • Yea, it's very difficult. But lengthening of games offensively and defensively is definitely a major side effect. Pace of play has been made an issue of by MLB itself for almost a decade now. You'd think they would do something to really curb all the stalling that is a side effect of this style of play. I know I say this all the time but it's also not good that the primary ball handler and most visible player on the field, on a hill in the middle of the field at that, has been reduced to a glorified pitching machine. Baseball needs the aces to be able to stay in the game so that they can continue to be stars and someone fans want to watch. Not the primary reason there is no action because the position is substituted for 6x a game.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  a glorified pitching machine.
                  That's all it's ever been. Just now it changes a lot more often during games.
                  Last edited by SavoyBG; 10-17-2018, 05:03 PM.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post



                    Rolen was also well recognized from the beginning - with a RoY and a gold glove his second season - and throughout his career despite the low MVP shares. He spent his prime on very bad Phillies teams that I grew up watching as an 8-13 year old. He wasn't getting any MVP support on that club. Pujols was going to get all the MVP consideration for the Cardinals success. It's tough to top an all-time top 5 first baseman that hits .330/40/120 with 40 doubles and 120 runs every season. I'm not sure how you could have been following baseball throughout the 00's and don't think Scott Rolen is at the very least a serious HoF candidate.

                    Anyhow among third basemen Rolen is:

                    Counting stats:
                    • Hits - 23rd
                    • 2B's - 6th
                    • HR's - 15th
                    • RBI's - 14th
                    • Runs - 16th
                    • bWAR - 9th
                    • fWAR - 12th
                    • Off. Runs - 12th
                    • Def. Runs - 5th
                    Rate stats:
                    (min. 4000 PA)
                    • Avg. - 54th
                    • OBP - 34th
                    • SLG - 11th
                    • OPS - 12th
                    • OPS+ - 22nd
                    Chrome & Leather:
                    • ASG - t-10th (7x)
                    • GG's - 3rd (8x)
                    • Hit .421 in 2006 World Series win.
                    • Hit .310 in the 2004 NLCS. One of the greatest postseason series ever.
                    • 4th third baseman ever to have 2000 hits, 500 doubles, 300 home runs and 1200 RBI with Schmidt, Brett and Jones.
                    Good stuff here.

                    I will add that the lists that you cite most likely contain players like Molitor, Edgar, Da Evans, Dick Allen and such, who played considerable time at positions other than 3rd base. Rolen never played an inning anywhere but 3B. He never DHed. He was born to play the position. He was Brooks Robinson with a better bat. Rolen is a clear HOFer.
                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                      Good stuff here.

                      I will add that the lists that you cite most likely contain players like Molitor, Edgar, Da Evans, Dick Allen and such, who played considerable time at positions other than 3rd base. Rolen never played an inning anywhere but 3B. He never DHed. He was born to play the position. He was Brooks Robinson with a better bat. Rolen is a clear HOFer.
                      Yea I parsed them out before I posted the numbers. Killebrew's name was on 3B lists too. As was A-Rod.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        • Lol, I know man.
                        • I know they work. It's just that the style of play it leads to isn't aesthetically pleasing.
                        • Yea, it's very difficult. But lengthening of games offensively and defensively is definitely a major side effect. Pace of play has been made an issue of by MLB itself for almost a decade now. You'd think they would do something to really curb all the stalling that is a side effect of this style of play. I know I say this all the time but it's also not good that the primary ball handler and most visible player on the field, on a hill in the middle of the field at that, has been reduced to a glorified pitching machine. Baseball needs the aces to be able to stay in the game so that they can continue to be stars and someone fans want to watch. Not the primary reason there is no action because the position is substituted for 6x a game.
                        There are some lengths that MLB is looking at pace of play that are just awful and would ruin things (example, the runner starting one second in extra innings rule in the minors), but there are some obvious things that could be changed. The limit to mound visits was a good idea. The timers are good (and from what I have heard the strict timers in the minors have been good as well). I think a limit on number of pitchers who can be used in a game is interesting as well. Or just an overall substitute limit.

                        It is one of those things, the romantic in me wants starters to pitch longer as well. But another side of me rolls my eyes hearing stories from folks like Jim Kaat bragging about their macho stubbornness.
                        "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                        -Bill James

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                          Rolen is one of the all-time fielding 3B ever. He should already be in the hall.

                          You are inconsistent, as Yogi Berra's MVP votes meant nothing to you, but now Rolen's do.
                          I'm not inconsistent. Berra's winning 3 MVPs means something: it means he had three good seasons. Lots of guys have had three good seasons. Rolen's lack of MVP support tells us something too.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by willshad View Post

                            I'm not inconsistent. Berra's winning 3 MVPs means something: it means he had three good seasons. Lots of guys have had three good seasons. Rolen's lack of MVP support tells us something too.
                            Do you truly believe that Berra had just 3 good seasons?

                            You are incredibly inconsistent, Actually, your posts are just a collection of blathering inconsistent assertions.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                              Actually, your posts are just a collection of blathering inconsistent assertions.
                              We are in 100% agreement on this point!

                              .


                              19th Century League Champion
                              1900s League Champion
                              1910s League Champion

                              1930s League Division Winner
                              1950s League Champion
                              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                              1960s League Division Winner
                              1970s League Champion
                              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                              1980s League Champion
                              All Time Greats League Champion

                              Comment


                              • '
                                Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                                Do you truly believe that Berra had just 3 good seasons?

                                You are incredibly inconsistent, Actually, your posts are just a collection of blathering inconsistent assertions.
                                I'm not inconsistent. Of course Berra had more than three good seasons. In fact, he had several seasons that were better than his three MVP years. He had about 7-8 good seasons, maybe one or two I would call 'great'. The fact is, though, that he didn't deserve any of his MVPs, so I don't really feel obligated to give him extra credit for them.

                                Comment

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