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Dusty Baker

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  • Originally posted by Aqua View Post
    I think of W. Robinson as the biggest mistake out of all the managers in the hall.
    "Uncle Robby" wasn't just a beloved manager, but a longtime coach as well. Until midway through Walter Alston's career, Robinson was probably considered the greatest manager in Brooklyn history. Furthermore, Wilbert Robinson was inducted as part of the 1945-1946 VC selections as was no doubt selected in no small part for his part as the catcher on those 1890s Baltimore Orioles squads, inducted along with his teammates at the same time. In the early years, many voters did not distinguish between a playing career and a non-playing career (such as a manager). Despite the initial conception of the institution as a way to honor the best players, the conflation of the two can be traced to Commissioner Landis' deference to honoring individuals better known as executives. The VC that made the selection had elected Landis just months earlier, upon his death.

    That said, Robinson is an obvious mistake selection in the sense that his managing career is a serious outlier compared to all other individuals enshrined for their managing. In my opinion, he is the only manager enshrinee who clearly does not belong on that basis.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
      "Uncle Robby" wasn't just a beloved manager, but a longtime coach as well. Until midway through Walter Alston's career, Robinson was probably considered the greatest manager in Brooklyn history. Furthermore, Wilbert Robinson was inducted as part of the 1945-1946 VC selections as was no doubt selected in no small part for his part as the catcher on those 1890s Baltimore Orioles squads, inducted along with his teammates at the same time. In the early years, many voters did not distinguish between a playing career and a non-playing career (such as a manager). Despite the initial conception of the institution as a way to honor the best players, the conflation of the two can be traced to Commissioner Landis' deference to honoring individuals better known as executives. The VC that made the selection had elected Landis just months earlier, upon his death.

      That said, Robinson is an obvious mistake selection in the sense that his managing career is a serious outlier compared to all other individuals enshrined for their managing. In my opinion, he is the only manager enshrinee who clearly does not belong on that basis.
      I concur...the totality of Uncle Robby's baseball life probably amounts to Hall worthiness. I've no problem with his conclusion on that basis.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
        My point is that there are some - and should be other - ways to measure the impact of a manager rather than simply the W-L record of the team. The W-L record of a team is primarily a function of (a) the talent on the playing field and (b) the man (in the front office) who assembled that talent.
        Bill James once tried documenting how managers used their lineups. It was quite interesting, but in terms of greatness, really didn't touch that issue. The fact that when we talk about the Hall, we talk about greatness is a huge issue with managers. Beyond the approach to using players (does he pinch hit a lot or a little?, does he use the stolen base a lot or not? does he use the much bunt little or a lot?, does he do double switches? does he platoon? does he use a lot of relievers for his time or not? does he like the left handed one out guy? ), everything the manager does is through his players. Even the approach issues can be significantly affected by the talent available to him. There are approaches I prefer in the abstract (young players over old, flexibility to address the situation he faces), but there are not absolutes there. You may need some experienced players to get the most out of a young team, for instance. It's hard to isolate the effect of the manager. If he wins consistently, he's at least not getting in the way of his teams' success. If he can help players develop by coaching, it's hard to isolate his influence from that of the players' work in implementing the coaching. We can judge how successful a manager is by looking at various measures of wins and losses and also including postseason accomplishments (pennants, world series won). There are issues with this approach, but I don't see a better one yet.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • Maybe somebody can fill in the details, but I remember some Brooklyn player in some baseball oral history book describing Uncle Robby as

          "More of a habit than a manager."

          Comment


          • Dusty clinched his 7th division title and 8th playoff appearance today. He could have his second 100 win team as well.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • Joel Sherman was raising the Baseball Life concept today in reference to DB (i.e., an above average player who became an excellent Manager having a composite case for the HOF.)
              "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

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              Comment


              • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                Joel Sherman was raising the Baseball Life concept today in reference to DB (i.e., an above average player who became an excellent Manager having a composite case for the HOF.)
                Kind of like Gil Hodges, eh?
                Shalom, y'all!
                What's the rumpus?

                Comment


                • He mentioned Torre (who I think was over the line as a player alone) but Gil is an excellent case for comparison.
                  "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

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                  Comment


                  • I think Dusty has a solid Hall of Fame case as a manager alone. He's nearing 1,900 career wins with a .533 winning percentage. With two more wins this season, he'll have his tenth 90+ win team. When the Nats reach 95 wins, they will be Dusty's sixth 95+ win team. If the Nats can win 100 games they would be Dusty's second 100 win team. Dusty does need a great postseason run to add to his legacy and support IMO, though.
                    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 09-13-2017, 01:29 PM.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • Dusty has some positives, but without at least a pennant, I don't think he gets in. He might make it without a series championship, but if he finishes without even a pennant, that deficiency will be glaring. You can quite accurately track the managers who make the Hall with just pennants won plus how wins and losses correlate to pennants. Dusty;s close without a pennant, but he's got his detractors, and they've got a strong counter argument in his failure to ever win a pennant. If he takes the sting out of that argument by winning just one pennant, I think he's done enough that he'll get the votes to make it. If that zero remains, I don't think at his age he can win enough to convince at least 75% of the VC to support him despite the lack of a pennant.
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                        Dusty has some positives, but without at least a pennant, I don't think he gets in. He might make it without a series championship, but if he finishes without even a pennant, that deficiency will be glaring. You can quite accurately track the managers who make the Hall with just pennants won plus how wins and losses correlate to pennants. Dusty;s close without a pennant, but he's got his detractors, and they've got a strong counter argument in his failure to ever win a pennant. If he takes the sting out of that argument by winning just one pennant, I think he's done enough that he'll get the votes to make it. If that zero remains, I don't think at his age he can win enough to convince at least 75% of the VC to support him despite the lack of a pennant.
                        2002 Giants...he has one pennant. I agree he could use another.

                        Comment


                        • My bad. That's what doing things from memory will get you. I think he might get in without another pennant, but I think one more would seal the deal for him for the reasons indicated.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • Baker's candidacy hinges on his tenure with the Nationals (not necessarily this season in particular).

                            As is, he may very well be the best manager outside my in/out line. Despite Baker's well documented flaws, his resume is fast getting to the point where denying a manager with this level of success is a bridge too far. A pennant would certainly be a substantive boost to his chances.
                            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                            Comment


                            • I think Dusty needs a World Series title to make the HOF.

                              In this day of 5 baseball teams per league making the playoffs, there isn't much luster for one and done in the playoffs (or even two and done if it doesn't take you to the World Series).

                              I haven't analyzed his worthiness myself relative to the competition, but that is just my gut feeling on his perception.
                              2016 - the year baseball died a lot for me. All I have left is memories and bitterness.

                              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for three days (baseball signatures only!)


                              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                              Comment


                              • If we go on perception, he probably needs to win about five World Series.
                                "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

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                                Comment

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