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The Hall of Corrections, Election #2

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  • The Hall of Corrections, Election #2

    It’s a crime that certain players are being left out of the Hall of Fame. This is the second in a series of polls to correct the situation. So far, we've decided that Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven and Dick Allen have earned a place in the HOF.

    Recently, we completed the Hall of Mistakes, identifying the bottom 15% among the players in the HOF. We finished by electing Rollie Fingers and Tony Lazzeri as the 33rd and 34th worst players enshrined. Here’s the entire roster of Mistakes:

    C (2) - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B (2) - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
    2B (4) - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri
    3B (3) - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
    SS (4) - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
    LF (2) - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
    CF (2) - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF (5) - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
    P (10) - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers

    Now, we want to figure out who should replace them. For this election, players must be currently eligible for the Cooperstown Hall, except we will ignore the ten year rule. Also, players from the National Association (1871-75) and previous to this should be considered. Negro leaguers and other players from Black baseball in North America are also eligible, of course. Players retired after 2000 (Ripken, Gwynn, Raines, Henderson, etc.) are not eligible. Players on MLB’s banned list (Rose, J. Jackson, Cicotte, Chase, etc.) and players whose entire career was in Japan (Kaneda, Oh, Nomura, etc.) are also ineligible.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, if you think Curt Flood or Lefty O’Doul’s off-the-field influences were enough to boost his playing career, vote for him. But only if you think his playing career comprises the majority of his overall contribution; this is a player’s election.

    Here are some suggestions as to whom to focus on. Players in bold are already chosen as Corrections (* marks players in BBFHOF):

    The top 16 also-rans in BBWAA balloting for 2006
    Jim Rice
    Rich Gossage*
    Andre Dawson*
    Bert Blyleven*
    Lee Smith
    Jack Morris
    Tommy John
    Steve Garvey
    Alan Trammell*
    Dave Parker
    Dave Concepcion
    Don Mattingly
    Orel Hershiser
    Dale Murphy
    Albert Belle
    Will Clark

    The 2005 Veterans Committee Balloting, 25 Players
    Ron Santo*
    Gil Hodges
    Tony Oliva
    Jim Kaat
    Joe Torre*
    Maury Wills
    Vada Pinson
    Luis Tiant
    Roger Maris
    Marty Marion
    Ken Boyer
    Joe Gordon
    Carl Mays
    Minnie Minoso*
    Dick Allen*
    Curt Flood
    Wes Ferrell
    Mickey Lolich
    Don Newcombe
    Sparky Lyle
    Elston Howard
    Bobby Bonds
    Rocky Colavito
    Thurman Munson
    Smoky Joe Wood

    18 Pre-1920 Stars Elected to the Hall of Merit (arranged chronologically)
    Dickey Pearce
    Joe Start
    Lip Pike
    Ross Barnes
    Cal McVey
    Ezra Sutton
    Deacon White*
    Paul Hines*
    Charlie Bennett
    Hardy Richardson
    George Gore
    Harry Stovey
    Jack Glasscock
    Bob Caruthers
    Bill Dahlen*
    Jimmy Sheckard
    Sherry Magee*
    Heinie Groh

    4 More Pre-1920 MLB Players, in the All-Timeline HOF but not in the Coop
    Pete Browning
    Tony Mullane
    Jimmy Ryan
    George Van Haltren

    5 “Top” Negro Leagues Candidates
    John Beckwith
    Grant Johnson
    Dick Lundy
    Dobie Moore
    Dick Redding

    16 Victims of the 5% Rule, Not Yet Eligible for VC Election
    Darrell Evans
    Dwight Evans
    Bobby Grich
    Ron Guidry
    Keith Hernandez
    Fred Lynn
    Graig Nettles
    Al Oliver
    Lance Parrish
    Dan Quisenberry
    Willie Randolph
    Ted Simmons*
    Ken Singleton
    Rusty Staub
    Dave Stieb
    Lou Whitaker

    19 Older Candidates Not Currently On VC Ballot
    Tommy Bridges
    Bert Campaneris
    Norm Cash
    Cupid Childs
    Gavy Cravath
    Larry Doyle
    Bob Elliott
    Bill Freehan
    Stan Hack
    Bob Johnson
    Charlie Keller
    Tommy Leach
    Al Rosen
    Wally Schang
    Reggie Smith
    Vern Stephens
    Mickey Vernon
    Bucky Walters
    Jimmy Wynn

    Let’s show the 103 players listed above by position:

    P (22) – Blyleven, Bridges, Caruthers, Ferrell, Gossage, Guidry, Hershiser, John, Kaat, Lolich, Lyle, Mays, Morris, Mullane, Newcombe, Quisenberry, Redding, L. Smith, Stieb, Tiant, Walters, J. Wood.
    C (10) – Bennett, Freehan, Howard, McVey, Munson, Parrish, Schang, Simmons, Torre, D. White.
    1B (9) – Allen, Cash, W. Clark, Garvey, Hernandez, Hodges, Mattingly, Start, Vernon.
    2B (8) – Barnes, Childs, L. Doyle, Gordon, Grich, Randolph, H. Richardson, Whitaker.
    3B (11) – Beckwith, K. Boyer, Elliott, Evans, Groh, Hack, Leach, Nettles, Rosen, Santo, Sutton.
    SS (12) – Campaneris, Concepcion, Dahlen, Glasscock, G. Johnson, Lundy, Marion, D. Moore, Pearce, Stephens, Trammell, Wills.
    LF (9) – Belle, Browning, B. Johnson, Keller, Magee, Minoso, Rice, Sheckard, Stovey.
    CF (11) – Dawson, Flood, Gore, Hines, Lynn, Murphy, Oliver, Pike, Pinson, Van Haltren, Wynn.
    RF(11) – Bonds, Colavito, Cravath, Evans, Maris, Oliva, Parker, Ryan, Singleton, R. Smith, Staub.

    Candidates are not restricted to these 103 of course. Eight players from the 64-Player VC Tournament that I ran a couple years back are not listed above: Urban Shocker, Tommy Bond, Bobby Veach, Lon Warneke, Herman Long, Jack Fournier, Allie Reynolds, and Lave Cross. Some others who were close to the list were Wally Berger, Sal Bando, Frank Howard, Buddy Myer, Jim McCormick, Jack Quinn and Billy Pierce.

    Voters should list their top ten selections in order. We'll elect three players each election for awhile. Points will be assigned this way: 12-11-10-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

    With Santo, Blyleven and Allen no longer eligible, here is my list of the next ten most deserving candidates for the Hall:

    1. Minnie Minoso
    2. Bill Dahlen
    3. Bobby Grich
    4. Joe Torre
    5. Paul Hines
    6. Rich Gossage
    7. Alan Trammell
    8. Deacon White
    9. Sherry Magee
    10.Lou Whitaker
    Last edited by Freakshow; 04-13-2006, 10:06 AM.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Freakshow
    Let’s show the 100 players listed above by position:

    P (21) – Lolich, Morris, Newcombe.
    C (10) – Bennett, Howard, McVey.
    1B (9) – Start.
    2B (8) – H. Richardson.
    SS (11) – Marion, Pearce , Wills.
    CF (11) – Hines, Pike.
    RF(10) – Maris.
    Where did we get these from?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RuthMayBond
      Where did we get these from?
      They all come from other group's lists of leading candidates, printed in my introductory post.
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Freakshow
        They all come from other group's lists of leading candidates, printed in my introductory post.
        Too late for other possible suggestions?
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
          Too late for other possible suggestions?
          Not at all. Who did you want to include?
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            1. Pete Browning
            2. Minnie Minoso
            3. Tommy Bridges
            4. Rich Gossage
            5. Allan Trammell
            6. Lou Whitaker
            7. Mike Tiernan
            8. George Gore
            9. Hardy Richardson
            10. Stan Hack
            Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Freakshow
              Let’s show the 100 players listed above by position:
              I was kinda hoping for more like this. I won't mess with the Negro League selections since I'm not knowledgable enough

              P (21) – Blyleven, Bridges, Caruthers, Ferrell, Gossage, Guidry, Hershiser, John, Kaat, DLeonard, (Lyle's gotta go too), Mays, JMcCormick, Mullane, Quisenberry, Redding, RReuschel, L. Smith, Stieb, Tiant, Walters, J. Wood.
              C (10) – Freehan, Munson, Parrish, DPorter, Schang, Simmons, Sundberg, Tenace, Torre, D. White.
              1B (9) – Allen, Cash, W. Clark, Garvey, Hernandez, Hodges, Mattingly, Powell, Vernon.
              2B (8) – Barnes, Childs, L. Doyle, Gordon, Grich, Randolph, (maybe no replacement for H. Richardson), Whitaker.
              3B (11) – Beckwith, K. Boyer, Elliott, Evans, Groh, Hack, Leach, Nettles, Rosen, Santo, Sutton.
              SS (11) – Bartell, Concepcion, Dahlen, Glasscock, G. Johnson, HLong, Lundy, D. Moore, Campaneris, Stephens, Trammell.
              LF (9) – Belle, Browning, B. Johnson, Keller, Magee, Minoso, Rice, Sheckard, Stovey.
              CF (11) – Butler, (WDavis or Cedeno), Dawson, Flood, Gore, Lynn, Murphy, Oliver, Pinson, Van Haltren, Wynn.
              RF(10) – Bonds, JClark, Colavito, Evans, Oliva, Parker, Ryan, Singleton, R. Smith, Staub.

              Some others who were close to the list were (instead of Buddy Myer) Del Pratt. What say ya?
              Last edited by RuthMayBond; 04-10-2006, 09:42 AM.
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

              Comment


              • #8
                RMB--
                It would help if you could highlight your additions. Also, remember players active after 2000 are not yet eligible.
                Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                  I won't mess with the Negro League selections since I'm not knowledgable enough
                  Miss Manners gently suggests you follow the same policy for 19th century players.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Freakshow
                    Also, remember players active after 2000 are not yet eligible.
                    Who did I goof with?
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Freakshow
                      Miss Manners gently suggests you follow the same policy for 19th century players.
                      Is Miss Manners implying that when it comes to 19th century players, I actually AM as dumb as I look? (it wouldn't take much to convince me to add Silver King). I'm sorry, you have to defend the pathetic nomination of Dickey Pearce.
                      Career slugging, .276.
                      Number of full seasons, five.
                      Number of 30+ RBI years, zero.
                      OPS+, 78.
                      Career RBI, 137.
                      Years after 1877, zero.
                      Sneaking him in the Hall, priceless
                      Dang, I left Hodges on
                      Last edited by RuthMayBond; 04-10-2006, 09:56 AM.
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                        Who did I goof with?
                        I noticed Grace, Fernandez and Franco.
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          Dickey Pearce.
                          Career slugging, .276.
                          Number of full seasons, five.
                          Number of 30+ RBI years, zero.
                          OPS+, 78.
                          Career RBI, 137.
                          Years after 1877, zero.
                          If that's your sum of knowledge of Pearce, naturally you could not fathom him as a viable HOF candidate.

                          For now, here's his plaque at the Hall of Merit:

                          Dickey Pearce - 1931 - SS/C
                          Brooklyn Atlantics (1856-70); Brooklyn Excelsiors (1866); New York (NA) 1871-72; Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1873-74; St. Louis Brown Stockings (NA) 1875; St. Louis (NL) 1876-77
                          Cap: Brooklyn Atlantics
                          Almost overnight, tiny Dickey Pearce transformed the position of shortstop from one of little defensive contribution to one with a great responsibility for preventing runs. He expanded the area a shortstop covered, developed defensive positioning based on where the batter would normally hit the ball, refined defensive strategy at the position and showed how a shortstop should throw the ball accurately to first. Besides being a defensive marvel, the speedy Pearce was also an above-average batsman who is credited with inventing the bunt and fair-foul hit. In the few All-Star games of that age, he was named the starting shortstop in 1858 and the starting catcher (which he performed excellently and played many times during his long career) in 1861. Arguably the greatest player of his era at his prime, he was one of the game’s first professionals. Sparkplug of the great champion Atlantic teams of 1864 and 1865. NA leader for Games (1871).
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Freakshow
                            For now, here's his plaque at the Hall of Merit:
                            Let's take a closer look at the plaque

                            Dickey Pearce - 1931 - SS/C
                            Brooklyn Atlantics (1856[/QUOTE]I bet they had awesome leagues then

                            <Almost overnight, tiny Dickey Pearce transformed the position of shortstop from one of little defensive contribution to one with a great responsibility for preventing runs.>

                            I'd like some evidence for this

                            <showed how a shortstop should throw the ball accurately to first.>

                            A little elucidation on this?

                            <the speedy Pearce was also an above-average batsman>

                            Based upon exactly what?

                            <who is credited with inventing the bunt>

                            <Arguably the greatest player of his era at his prime>

                            I hear Ross Barnes knocking
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              RMB--

                              Your additions to the candidates list are all solid players, certainly. Though I could be wrong, I don't think any of them is a serious candidate for election by our group.

                              I also think you would do well to reconsider Paul Hines. If you need any info on him, just ask the voters at the BBFHOF, who elected him in December.
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                              Comment

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