Goose Goslin

[Bothrops Atrox]

Even then his raw OPS+ stats top Gos's. What this basically means is that Simmons was far superior with the bat alone and his BA compared to league average confirms this.

Correct. WAR SF doesn't punish not walking. It punishes making outs. If a batter hit .400 every season in all singles and zero walks...he would still have a better WAR based on OB% than a guy with a .370 OB% with tons of them being walks. It's why a light walker from a corner OF position like Gwynn (whose defense was about a net wash given his last half slowdown) still racked-up 70 WAR. Dont believe anyone who says WAR only cares about walks or any such nonsense.

[Bamay22]

Simmons is hurt in advanced hitting stats (OPS+ & Rbat) and War because his walk rate was so low compared to most other great hitters. Goslin's BB% was close to 10%, while Simmons' was only 6.5%. DiMaggio is known as someone who really didn't walk that much either, though his BB% is similar to Goslin's, about 10%.

Even then his raw OPS+ stats top Gos's. What this basically means is that Simmons was far superior with the bat alone and his BA compared to league average confirms this.

[layson27]

Simmons is hurt in advanced hitting stats (OPS+ & Rbat) and War because his walk rate was so low compared to most other great hitters. Goslin's BB% was close to 10%, while Simmons' was only 6.5%. DiMaggio is known as someone who really didn't walk that much either, though his BB% is similar to Goslin's, about 10%.

[bluesky5]

Al Simmons will also quit on the ball club. Not sure Goslin ever had that reputation. Just the normal yearly salary holdouts that came with the reserve clause. He was certainly no great shakes with the glove. They were teammates on the 1938 Senators. On 4/24 they drove in all 3 runs on pinch hits in a 4-3 L at the New York. Goslin hit a tying 2 run HR in the 7th and Simmons had the go ahead sac fly to score Buddy Lewis the next inning. But the bullpen blew it. Looks like they started together on 6/11 with Goose in left and Simmons in center and on 6/22 with Goose in right and Simmons in left.

[Bamay22]

I've always considered Goslin to be a poor man's Al Simmons. Perhaps this isn't really fair, as they are not really that far apart. A middle class man's Al Simmons maybe? Does anyone rank Goslin ahead?

Gos is pretty close as Simmons was definitely helped by his home park and Goslin was hurt by it. I think this essentially evens them out as hitters. Simmons would get the edge on defense as he played some quality innings as a CF. This puts Simmons ahead in my book although it is just a slight lead. Might I add that after Goslin on my list is Billy Williams.

[willshad]

I've always considered Goslin to be a poor man's Al Simmons. Perhaps this isn't really fair, as they are not really that far apart. A middle class man's Al Simmons maybe? Does anyone rank Goslin ahead?

[Bamay22]

--Goslin has been largely forgotten. A little surprising given his catchy nickname, key role on 5 pennant winners (including all 3 in Senators history) and his overall outstanding play. Had he played any place but Griffith Stadium he would have hit alot more HR, but he managed to drive home a ton of runs with doubles and triples anyway. He was a very good defensive player as well.
--In the Buckerfoot Al thread I mentioned Goslin earlier today as one of 8 LFers who could rank anywhere from 8-15 all time at the position. Even if you put him at the top of that group its going to leave him out of the top 50. If he is closer to the bottom he doesn't even make the top 100. We may have the chance to slot him in one of those groups soon. Check out the thread Ranking the Legends to see if you'd be interested in doing that.

I've got him at 14 with Simmons at 13. 12 is Fred Clarke and 11 is Tim Raines.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Goslin was a fine player who, unfortunately, played half his career in a very tough ballpark and played in a time of mega-stars.

Goslin suffers from being a Washington Senator, a team that no longer exists; it died twice.

Goslin also suffers from being inducted into the HOF with Heinie Manush and Kiki Cuyler, both of whom are criticized picks. Goslin was better than both of them.

[leecemark]

--Not setting the bar very high for yourself there, Jim .
--Nomar, you'll find this a friendlier place if you try and add something of value to the discussion and not just insult other people's opinions. In this case I agree with your conclusion, but I hope for both more substance and civility from those who take my side of an issue.

[ElHalo]

Ahead of Reggie Jackson? Ha! .that shows how much you know about baseball.

Agree with me or disagree with me (I'm sure that almost everyone but Bill Burgess would disagree with me at that particular point), but I can pretty much guarantee you that I know more about baseball than you do, and that pretty much everyone here would agree with me on that.

[leecemark]

--I separate pitcher from position players and can't rank nearly as far with pitchers. Too many of them are very close in achievement. There is also the complication of comparign great peak, short career pitchers with pitchers of lesser skill, but much greater career achievment. There are some shooting stars amoung position players, but it is far more common amoung pitchers and I think you have to be at least a little more forgiving of pitchers who break down earlier.
--If Koufax was a posiiton player of similar career path he wouldn't make my top 50, but he is top 20 amoung pitchers. Vance and Newhouser rank in the 20s for me and might not be top 100 if they had the same pattern as position players.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Most members seperate positioned players from pitchers. A few members have up to 200 pitchers ranked. I have a top 100, but I am going through some changes towards the bottom. Here is my top 50.



1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Lefty Grove
4. Roger Clemens
5. Christie Mathewson
6. Pete Alexander
7. Greg Maddux
8. Warren Spahn
9. Tom Seaver
10. Satchel Paige
11. Randy Johnson
12. Kid Nichols
13. Bob Gibson
14. Pedro Martinez
15. Bob Feller
16. Carl Hubbell
17. Mordeci Brown
18. Steve Carlton
19. Whitey Ford
20. Jim Palmer
21. Juan Marichal
22. Sandy Koufax
23. John Clarkson
24. Eddie Plank
25. Joe Williams
26. Tim Keefe
27. Ed Walsh
28. Gaylord Perry
29. Nolan Ryan
30. Robin Roberts
31. Joe Rogan
32. Dennis Eckersley
33. Bert Blyleven
34. Hoyt Wilhelm
35. Rube Waddell
36. Fergie Jenkins
37. Joe McGinnity
38. Phil Niekro
39. Tom Glavine
40. Charles Radbourn
41. Addie Joss
42. Stan Coveleski
43. Mariano Rivera
44. Hal Newhouser
45. Dazzy Vance
46. Don Drysdale
47. Amos Rusie
48. Goose Gossage
49. Don Sutton
50. Bob Lemon

[Bothrops Atrox]

Here is my current top 100 positioned players

100. Kirby Puckett
99. Sam Thompson
98. Willie Keeler
97. Manny Ramirez
96. Joe Cronin
95. George Davis
94. Robin Yount
93. Frankie Frisch
92. Ryne Sandberg
91. Ozzie Smith
90. Gary Carter
89. Luke Appling
88. Carlton Fisk
87. Ron Santo
86. Christobel Torriente
85. Frank Baker
84. Willie Wells
83. Craig Biggio
82. Paul Molitor
81. Jesse Burkett
80. Gabby Hartnett
79. Joe Medwick
78. Pie Traynor
77. Buck Ewing
76. Brooks Robinson
75. Paul Waner
74. Mike Piazza
73. Goose Goslin
72. Bill Dickey
71. Ernie Banks
70. Willie McCovey
69. Willie Stargell
68. Dave Winfield
67. Roberto Alomar
66. Reggie Jackson
65. Harmon Killebrew
64. Roger Connors
63. Rod Carew
62. Frank Thomas
61. Ivan Rodriguez
60. Buck Leonard
59. Duke Snider
58. Wade Boggs
57. Billy Hamilton
56. Eddie Murray
55. Jeff Bagwell
54. Cool Papa Bell
53. Johnny Mize
52. Al Kaline
51. Roy Campanella
50. Arkie Vaughn
49. Al Kaline
48. Turkey Sterns
47. Pete Rose
46. Jackie Robinson
45. Mickey Cochrane
44. Harry Heilmann
43. Sam Crawford
42. George Sisler
41. Eddie Mathews
40. Cal Ripken Jr.
39. Ken Griffey Jr.
38. Tony Gwynn
37. Charlie Gehringer
36. Carl Yastremzki
35. George Brett
34. Hank Greenberg
33. Al Simmons
32. Martin Dihigo
31. Pop Lloyd
30. Joe Morgan
29. Yogi Berra
28. Ed Delehanty
27. Alex Rodriguez
26. Joe Jackson
25. Cap Anson
24. Mel Ott
23. Nap Lajoie
22. Rickey Henderson
21. Dan Brouthers
20. Frank Robinson
19. Johnny Bench
18. Mike Schmidt
17. Joe DiMaggio
16. Oscar Charleston
15. Jimmie Foxx
14. Eddie Collins
13. Barry Bonds
12. Tris Speaker
11. Mickey Mantle
10. Josh Gibson
9 Rogers Hornsby
8. Stan Musial
7. Hank Aaron
6. Lou Gehrig
5. Honus Wagner
4. Ted Williams
3. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
1. Babe Ruth

[538280]

Ty Cobb is at least 4 spots to low read Al Stumps book Btw Babe Ruth is number 1 for crissakes he won damn near 100 games in 5 years as a pitcher. I just started spinning after your top ten? wheres Cy Young? I just doubled checked NOWHERE. ....Time to revamp your list BTW whys Mike Schmidt so high?

That's only position players, so Cy Young is of course nowhere to be found. I have him 5th amongst pitchers.

Cobb has been a bit overrated by history IMO, he played in a weak league and didn't really dominate his league quite like Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Wagner, Bonds, or even Schmidt

Schmidt was the best player in his league 8 times, the same amount as Ruth and I believe 3rd all time behind only Ruth and Mantle. He didn't separate quite as much from the pack as those guys, but to me that tells more about the strength of the league he played in than that he wasn't as good. 70s/80s players generally are horribly underrated because of that.

I have Mays over Ruth with a combination of fielding, league quality and longevity. Basically Ruth is a better hitter but not as much as a quick look at the stats would suggest, and Mays is better in just about every other category, plus he played in a fully integrated, fully devolped league.

[tigers527]

Very many of us have top 50s, some (including myself) even have a top 100. Here's my top 100 right here actually, to get you started if you need some help making yours:

1.Willie Mays
2.Babe Ruth
3.Barry Bonds
4.Mike Schmidt
5.Hank Aaron
6.Oscar Charleston
7.Honus Wagner
8.Mickey Mantle
9.Ted Williams
10.Ty Cobb
11.Josh Gibson
12.Joe Morgan
13.Lou Gehrig
14.Eickey Henderson
15.Tris Speaker
16.Eddie Collins
17.Stan Musial
18.Frank Robinson
19.Pop Lloyd
20.Johnny Bench
21.Rogers Hornsby
22.Arky Vaughan
23.Christobal Torriente
24.Eddie Mathews
25.Reggie Jackson
26.Alex Rodriguez
27.Jimmie Foxx
28.Joe DiMaggio
29.Frank Thomas
30.Jeff Bagwell
31.Jackie Robinson
32.George Brett
33.Turkey Stearnes
34.Mel Ott
35.Pete Rose
36.Yogi Berra
37.Nap Lajoie
38.Tony Gwynn
39.Tim Raines
40.Ron Santo
41.Willie McCovey
42.Robin Yount
43.Charlie Gehringer
44.Sam Crawford
45.Gary Sheffield
46.Mike Piazza
47.Carl Yastrzemski
48.Wade Boggs
49.Mickey Cochrane
50.Willie Stargell
51.Johnny Mize
52.Dick Allen
53.Al Kaline
54.Roberto Clemente
55.Barry Larkin
56.Eddie Murray
57.Carlton Fisk
58.Dave Winfield
59.Cal Ripken
60.Billy Williams
61.Frank Baker
62.Harmon Killebrew
63.Ed Delahanty
64.Biz Mackey
65.Gary Carter
66.Martin Dihigo
67.Al Simmons
68.Jimmy Wynn
69.Bobby Grich
70.Ray Dandridge
71.Roger Connor
72.Craig Biggio
73.Ken Griffey Jr.
74.Roy Campanella
75.Duke Snider
76.Bobby Bonds
77.Dan Brouthers
78.Sal Bando
79.Joe Jackson
80.Rod Carew
81.Bill Dickey
82.Willard Brown
83.Joe Torre
84.Larry Doby
85.Paul Waner
86.Roberto Alomar
87.Will Clark
88.Joe Medwick
89.Billy Hamilton
90.Ernie Banks
91.Kirby Puckett
92.Goose Goslin
93.Hank Greenberg
94.Sherry Magee
95.Willie Wells
96.Paul Molitor
97.Wally Berger
98.Cesar Cedeno
99.Jimmy Collins
100.Luke Appling

Ty Cobb is at least 4 spots to low read Al Stumps book Btw Babe Ruth is number 1 for crissakes he won damn near 100 games in 5 years as a pitcher. I just started spinning after your top ten? wheres Cy Young? I just doubled checked NOWHERE. ....Time to revamp your list BTW whys Mike Schmidt so high?