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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post

    Even then his raw OPS+ stats top Gos's. What this basically means is that Simmons was far superior with the bat alone and his BA compared to league average confirms this.
    Correct. WAR SF doesn't punish not walking. It punishes making outs. If a batter hit .400 every season in all singles and zero walks...he would still have a better WAR based on OB% than a guy with a .370 OB% with tons of them being walks. It's why a light walker from a corner OF position like Gwynn (whose defense was about a net wash given his last half slowdown) still racked-up 70 WAR. Dont believe anyone who says WAR only cares about walks or any such nonsense.

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  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by layson27 View Post
    Simmons is hurt in advanced hitting stats (OPS+ & Rbat) and War because his walk rate was so low compared to most other great hitters. Goslin's BB% was close to 10%, while Simmons' was only 6.5%. DiMaggio is known as someone who really didn't walk that much either, though his BB% is similar to Goslin's, about 10%.
    Even then his raw OPS+ stats top Gos's. What this basically means is that Simmons was far superior with the bat alone and his BA compared to league average confirms this.

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  • layson27
    replied
    Simmons is hurt in advanced hitting stats (OPS+ & Rbat) and War because his walk rate was so low compared to most other great hitters. Goslin's BB% was close to 10%, while Simmons' was only 6.5%. DiMaggio is known as someone who really didn't walk that much either, though his BB% is similar to Goslin's, about 10%.

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Al Simmons will also quit on the ball club. Not sure Goslin ever had that reputation. Just the normal yearly salary holdouts that came with the reserve clause. He was certainly no great shakes with the glove. They were teammates on the 1938 Senators. On 4/24 they drove in all 3 runs on pinch hits in a 4-3 L at the New York. Goslin hit a tying 2 run HR in the 7th and Simmons had the go ahead sac fly to score Buddy Lewis the next inning. But the bullpen blew it. Looks like they started together on 6/11 with Goose in left and Simmons in center and on 6/22 with Goose in right and Simmons in left.

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  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I've always considered Goslin to be a poor man's Al Simmons. Perhaps this isn't really fair, as they are not really that far apart. A middle class man's Al Simmons maybe? Does anyone rank Goslin ahead?
    Gos is pretty close as Simmons was definitely helped by his home park and Goslin was hurt by it. I think this essentially evens them out as hitters. Simmons would get the edge on defense as he played some quality innings as a CF. This puts Simmons ahead in my book although it is just a slight lead. Might I add that after Goslin on my list is Billy Williams.

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  • willshad
    replied
    I've always considered Goslin to be a poor man's Al Simmons. Perhaps this isn't really fair, as they are not really that far apart. A middle class man's Al Simmons maybe? Does anyone rank Goslin ahead?

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  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
    --Goslin has been largely forgotten. A little surprising given his catchy nickname, key role on 5 pennant winners (including all 3 in Senators history) and his overall outstanding play. Had he played any place but Griffith Stadium he would have hit alot more HR, but he managed to drive home a ton of runs with doubles and triples anyway. He was a very good defensive player as well.
    --In the Buckerfoot Al thread I mentioned Goslin earlier today as one of 8 LFers who could rank anywhere from 8-15 all time at the position. Even if you put him at the top of that group its going to leave him out of the top 50. If he is closer to the bottom he doesn't even make the top 100. We may have the chance to slot him in one of those groups soon. Check out the thread Ranking the Legends to see if you'd be interested in doing that.
    I've got him at 14 with Simmons at 13. 12 is Fred Clarke and 11 is Tim Raines.

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  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    Originally posted by KCGHOST
    Goslin was a fine player who, unfortunately, played half his career in a very tough ballpark and played in a time of mega-stars.
    Goslin suffers from being a Washington Senator, a team that no longer exists; it died twice.

    Goslin also suffers from being inducted into the HOF with Heinie Manush and Kiki Cuyler, both of whom are criticized picks. Goslin was better than both of them.

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  • leecemark
    replied
    --Not setting the bar very high for yourself there, Jim .
    --Nomar, you'll find this a friendlier place if you try and add something of value to the discussion and not just insult other people's opinions. In this case I agree with your conclusion, but I hope for both more substance and civility from those who take my side of an issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • ElHalo
    replied
    Originally posted by NOMAR22
    Ahead of Reggie Jackson? Ha! .that shows how much you know about baseball.
    Agree with me or disagree with me (I'm sure that almost everyone but Bill Burgess would disagree with me at that particular point), but I can pretty much guarantee you that I know more about baseball than you do, and that pretty much everyone here would agree with me on that.

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  • leecemark
    replied
    --I separate pitcher from position players and can't rank nearly as far with pitchers. Too many of them are very close in achievement. There is also the complication of comparign great peak, short career pitchers with pitchers of lesser skill, but much greater career achievment. There are some shooting stars amoung position players, but it is far more common amoung pitchers and I think you have to be at least a little more forgiving of pitchers who break down earlier.
    --If Koufax was a posiiton player of similar career path he wouldn't make my top 50, but he is top 20 amoung pitchers. Vance and Newhouser rank in the 20s for me and might not be top 100 if they had the same pattern as position players.

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Most members seperate positioned players from pitchers. A few members have up to 200 pitchers ranked. I have a top 100, but I am going through some changes towards the bottom. Here is my top 50.



    1. Walter Johnson
    2. Cy Young
    3. Lefty Grove
    4. Roger Clemens
    5. Christie Mathewson
    6. Pete Alexander
    7. Greg Maddux
    8. Warren Spahn
    9. Tom Seaver
    10. Satchel Paige
    11. Randy Johnson
    12. Kid Nichols
    13. Bob Gibson
    14. Pedro Martinez
    15. Bob Feller
    16. Carl Hubbell
    17. Mordeci Brown
    18. Steve Carlton
    19. Whitey Ford
    20. Jim Palmer
    21. Juan Marichal
    22. Sandy Koufax
    23. John Clarkson
    24. Eddie Plank
    25. Joe Williams
    26. Tim Keefe
    27. Ed Walsh
    28. Gaylord Perry
    29. Nolan Ryan
    30. Robin Roberts
    31. Joe Rogan
    32. Dennis Eckersley
    33. Bert Blyleven
    34. Hoyt Wilhelm
    35. Rube Waddell
    36. Fergie Jenkins
    37. Joe McGinnity
    38. Phil Niekro
    39. Tom Glavine
    40. Charles Radbourn
    41. Addie Joss
    42. Stan Coveleski
    43. Mariano Rivera
    44. Hal Newhouser
    45. Dazzy Vance
    46. Don Drysdale
    47. Amos Rusie
    48. Goose Gossage
    49. Don Sutton
    50. Bob Lemon

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Here is my current top 100 positioned players

    100. Kirby Puckett
    99. Sam Thompson
    98. Willie Keeler
    97. Manny Ramirez
    96. Joe Cronin
    95. George Davis
    94. Robin Yount
    93. Frankie Frisch
    92. Ryne Sandberg
    91. Ozzie Smith
    90. Gary Carter
    89. Luke Appling
    88. Carlton Fisk
    87. Ron Santo
    86. Christobel Torriente
    85. Frank Baker
    84. Willie Wells
    83. Craig Biggio
    82. Paul Molitor
    81. Jesse Burkett
    80. Gabby Hartnett
    79. Joe Medwick
    78. Pie Traynor
    77. Buck Ewing
    76. Brooks Robinson
    75. Paul Waner
    74. Mike Piazza
    73. Goose Goslin
    72. Bill Dickey
    71. Ernie Banks
    70. Willie McCovey
    69. Willie Stargell
    68. Dave Winfield
    67. Roberto Alomar
    66. Reggie Jackson
    65. Harmon Killebrew
    64. Roger Connors
    63. Rod Carew
    62. Frank Thomas
    61. Ivan Rodriguez
    60. Buck Leonard
    59. Duke Snider
    58. Wade Boggs
    57. Billy Hamilton
    56. Eddie Murray
    55. Jeff Bagwell
    54. Cool Papa Bell
    53. Johnny Mize
    52. Al Kaline
    51. Roy Campanella
    50. Arkie Vaughn
    49. Al Kaline
    48. Turkey Sterns
    47. Pete Rose
    46. Jackie Robinson
    45. Mickey Cochrane
    44. Harry Heilmann
    43. Sam Crawford
    42. George Sisler
    41. Eddie Mathews
    40. Cal Ripken Jr.
    39. Ken Griffey Jr.
    38. Tony Gwynn
    37. Charlie Gehringer
    36. Carl Yastremzki
    35. George Brett
    34. Hank Greenberg
    33. Al Simmons
    32. Martin Dihigo
    31. Pop Lloyd
    30. Joe Morgan
    29. Yogi Berra
    28. Ed Delehanty
    27. Alex Rodriguez
    26. Joe Jackson
    25. Cap Anson
    24. Mel Ott
    23. Nap Lajoie
    22. Rickey Henderson
    21. Dan Brouthers
    20. Frank Robinson
    19. Johnny Bench
    18. Mike Schmidt
    17. Joe DiMaggio
    16. Oscar Charleston
    15. Jimmie Foxx
    14. Eddie Collins
    13. Barry Bonds
    12. Tris Speaker
    11. Mickey Mantle
    10. Josh Gibson
    9 Rogers Hornsby
    8. Stan Musial
    7. Hank Aaron
    6. Lou Gehrig
    5. Honus Wagner
    4. Ted Williams
    3. Willie Mays
    2. Ty Cobb
    1. Babe Ruth
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 04-15-2006, 09:00 AM.

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  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by tigers527
    Ty Cobb is at least 4 spots to low read Al Stumps book Btw Babe Ruth is number 1 for crissakes he won damn near 100 games in 5 years as a pitcher. I just started spinning after your top ten? wheres Cy Young? I just doubled checked NOWHERE. ....Time to revamp your list BTW whys Mike Schmidt so high?
    That's only position players, so Cy Young is of course nowhere to be found. I have him 5th amongst pitchers.

    Cobb has been a bit overrated by history IMO, he played in a weak league and didn't really dominate his league quite like Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Wagner, Bonds, or even Schmidt

    Schmidt was the best player in his league 8 times, the same amount as Ruth and I believe 3rd all time behind only Ruth and Mantle. He didn't separate quite as much from the pack as those guys, but to me that tells more about the strength of the league he played in than that he wasn't as good. 70s/80s players generally are horribly underrated because of that.

    I have Mays over Ruth with a combination of fielding, league quality and longevity. Basically Ruth is a better hitter but not as much as a quick look at the stats would suggest, and Mays is better in just about every other category, plus he played in a fully integrated, fully devolped league.

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  • tigers527
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    Very many of us have top 50s, some (including myself) even have a top 100. Here's my top 100 right here actually, to get you started if you need some help making yours:

    1.Willie Mays
    2.Babe Ruth
    3.Barry Bonds
    4.Mike Schmidt
    5.Hank Aaron
    6.Oscar Charleston
    7.Honus Wagner
    8.Mickey Mantle
    9.Ted Williams
    10.Ty Cobb
    11.Josh Gibson
    12.Joe Morgan
    13.Lou Gehrig
    14.Eickey Henderson
    15.Tris Speaker
    16.Eddie Collins
    17.Stan Musial
    18.Frank Robinson
    19.Pop Lloyd
    20.Johnny Bench
    21.Rogers Hornsby
    22.Arky Vaughan
    23.Christobal Torriente
    24.Eddie Mathews
    25.Reggie Jackson
    26.Alex Rodriguez
    27.Jimmie Foxx
    28.Joe DiMaggio
    29.Frank Thomas
    30.Jeff Bagwell
    31.Jackie Robinson
    32.George Brett
    33.Turkey Stearnes
    34.Mel Ott
    35.Pete Rose
    36.Yogi Berra
    37.Nap Lajoie
    38.Tony Gwynn
    39.Tim Raines
    40.Ron Santo
    41.Willie McCovey
    42.Robin Yount
    43.Charlie Gehringer
    44.Sam Crawford
    45.Gary Sheffield
    46.Mike Piazza
    47.Carl Yastrzemski
    48.Wade Boggs
    49.Mickey Cochrane
    50.Willie Stargell
    51.Johnny Mize
    52.Dick Allen
    53.Al Kaline
    54.Roberto Clemente
    55.Barry Larkin
    56.Eddie Murray
    57.Carlton Fisk
    58.Dave Winfield
    59.Cal Ripken
    60.Billy Williams
    61.Frank Baker
    62.Harmon Killebrew
    63.Ed Delahanty
    64.Biz Mackey
    65.Gary Carter
    66.Martin Dihigo
    67.Al Simmons
    68.Jimmy Wynn
    69.Bobby Grich
    70.Ray Dandridge
    71.Roger Connor
    72.Craig Biggio
    73.Ken Griffey Jr.
    74.Roy Campanella
    75.Duke Snider
    76.Bobby Bonds
    77.Dan Brouthers
    78.Sal Bando
    79.Joe Jackson
    80.Rod Carew
    81.Bill Dickey
    82.Willard Brown
    83.Joe Torre
    84.Larry Doby
    85.Paul Waner
    86.Roberto Alomar
    87.Will Clark
    88.Joe Medwick
    89.Billy Hamilton
    90.Ernie Banks
    91.Kirby Puckett
    92.Goose Goslin
    93.Hank Greenberg
    94.Sherry Magee
    95.Willie Wells
    96.Paul Molitor
    97.Wally Berger
    98.Cesar Cedeno
    99.Jimmy Collins
    100.Luke Appling
    Ty Cobb is at least 4 spots to low read Al Stumps book Btw Babe Ruth is number 1 for crissakes he won damn near 100 games in 5 years as a pitcher. I just started spinning after your top ten? wheres Cy Young? I just doubled checked NOWHERE. ....Time to revamp your list BTW whys Mike Schmidt so high?
    Last edited by tigers527; 04-15-2006, 06:22 AM.

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