Top 50 position players

[Sockeye]

Just out of curiosity, could you list who you think are the say 50 greatest players ever (don't worry about exact order)?

I'll do the top 50 position players in history. In alphabetical order

Hank Aaron
Cap Anson
Harold Baines
Ernie Banks
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
George Brett
Roberto Clemente
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Andre Dawson
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Goose Goslin
Ken Griffey Jr
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson
Rogers Hornsby
Reggie Jackson
Al Kaline
Nap Lajoie
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Willie Mays
Fred McGriff
Paul Molitor
Eddie Murray
Stan Musial
Mel Ott
Rafael Palmeiro
Dave Perker
Tony Perez
Vada Pinson
Cal Ripken
Brooks Robinson
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose
Babe Ruth
Mike Schmidt
Al Simmons
Sammy Sosa
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Paul Waner
Billy Williams
Ted Williams
Dave Winfield
Carl Yastrzemski
Robin Yount

[oscargamblesfro]

interesting list, i find baines and pinson to be your most questionable selections...

[RuthMayBond]

I'll do the top 50 position players in history. In alphabetical order

Harold Baines
Fred McGriff
Tony Perez
Vada Pinson
Brooks Robinson
Sammy Sosa

Let's just say these are iffy

[oscargamblesfro]

also, strangely, there are no true catchers on this list... no bench, berra, etc? and how about joe morgan?

[iPod]

Let's just say these are iffy

Add Andre Dawson to that list.

Dawson > Yogi Berra?

[RuthMayBond]

Add Andre Dawson to that list.

I was strongly considering him for the list too. I gotta admit, Sockeye keeps getting off the ground and back onto the horse

[DoubleX]

Al Kaline's on your list. He's on mine too, but I didn't think you thought much of Kaline (or maybe it's the opposite and it's that you think that much of Beltre).

Not a bad list though, there are some players that that stick out a bit. I don't think these players would make my top 50, but to each their own:

Harold Baines - He's probably in my top 250, maybe even top 200.

Craig Biggio - I don't begrudge this too much. Bill James seems to think Biggio is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's in my top 100.

Andre Dawson - This is almost certainly too high for him. I could see arguments for him in the top 100, he's certainly no worse than top 150, IMO (but I'm sure there are many here who might put him even lower).

Goose Goslin - I like this pick because Goslin is too often overlooked, but it still seems a bit high. He's in my top 100.

Fred McGriff - Solid player for a long time, but not top 50. Top 150 is probably more appropriate.

Paul Molitor - Maybe top 100, if so it's borderline top 100. Being a DH really depressed his value, IMO.

Rafael Palmeiro - No way, especially after the steroids revelation.

Dave Parker - Ask someone in 1978 about Dave Parker and they might say he is well on his way to be a top 50 talent. Didn't play out that way though. I can see him in top 150.

Tony Perez - You're really liking these 1Bman compilers, aren't you? Perez is top 150 probably for me. I don't understand how Palmeiro, McGriff, and Perez can be on this list, but not McCovey, Killebrew, Allen, McGwire, and Terry.

Vada Pinson - He was well on his way and then just dropped off by 28. Might be top 200 for me.

Brooks Robinson - Great defense, but not enough offense to get into top 50. Top 100 probably.

Sammy Sosa - Nope. Totally one-dimensional player, his HR totals are not so much of a symbol of his talent as his era and likely using certain illegal supplements.

Billy Williams - Probably a little high for him. Top 100.

Dave Winfield - Ditto.

[leecemark]

--I only got 3 players into your list before seeing enough to convince me that going further would be a waste of time. Harold freaking Baines one of the top 50 players of all time? He isn't even close to being one of the 50 best players of my lifetime. Baines was a fairly good hitter for a long time, but never a great one. Most of his career he had zero defensive value and was a below average to poor baserunner.

[Chadwick]

Abstractly, the top 5 at each position would make for 40 players. Add ten at-large position players and there's your top 50.

Where do you rank Harold Baines among right fielders? Surely not in the top 5?

[Dudeman]

Hank Aaron
Cap Anson
Jeff Bagwell
Ernie Banks
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Barry Bonds
Wade Boggs
George Brett
Rod Carew
Oscar Charleston
Roberto Clemente
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Ed Delahanty
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Loh Gehrig
Josh Gibson
Ken Griffey Jr
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Jackson
Al Kaline
Nap Lajoie
John Henry Lloyd
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Joe Morgan
Stan Musial
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Cal Ripken Jr
Frank Robinson
Jackie Robinson
Alex Rodriguez
Ivan Rodriguez
Babe Ruth
Mike Schmidt
Tris Speaker
Frank Thomas
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Robin Yount

[digglahhh]

Sockeye,

The no catcher thing has already been mentioned.

No A-Rod?

[digglahhh]

General question here:

We see Frank Thomas appear on a lot of these top 50 lists. But rarely do we see Manny Ramirez.

Both of these guys are pushing for spots solely with their bats. Thomas is a crappy defensive 1B who has DHed for the second half of his career.

Manny is an awful defensive LF.

Now, Thomas has the peak edge on Manny and he's still played more games with a higher OPS+, though a lower raw OPS. Thomas does have the OBP edge, which is considered the more important component of the metric.

But hasn't Manny's consistency offset Frank's peak at this point?

Some people bring up the MVP thing. But truthfully Manny's lack of an MVP is a function of the fact that he is always splitting the vote with teammates.

Also it seems pretty clear that Manny has some more productive years ahead of him, while Frank is playing out the string.

[DoubleX]

General question here:

We see Frank Thomas appear on a lot of these top 50 lists. But rarely do we see Manny Ramirez.

Both of these guys are pushing for spots solely with their bats. Thomas is a crappy defensive 1B who has DHed for the second half of his career.

Manny is an awful defensive LF.

Now, Thomas has the peak edge on Manny and he's still played more games with a higher OPS+, though a lower raw OPS. Thomas does have the OBP edge, which is considered the more important component of the metric.

But hasn't Manny's consistency offset Frank's peak at this point?

Some people bring up the MVP thing. But truthfully Manny's lack of an MVP is a function of the fact that he is always splitting the vote with teammates.

Also it seems pretty clear that Manny has some more productive years ahead of him, while Frank is playing out the string.

I agree. I think Manny's career is generally underrated. Thomas' OPS+ is 161 while Manny's is 156. And Manny, while a bad fielder, has played field his entire career. So I think you definitely have a good point.

A few things that might cause Thomas to be further ahead are...

- The MVPs, as you mentioned. Two for Thomas, none for Manny.

- Thomas was putting Ted Williams like numbers just before explosion in the mid and late 90s. Manny came during that time, so there might be a subconscious bias against his numbers, whereas Thomas' numbers in the early 90s were especially mind-boggling given the levels of offense we had been accustomed to in the 60s-80s.

- Manny's been extremely consistent, but his peak is not quite as impressive as Thomas' (which also factors in the above point of Thomas being at his best before the explosion in the mid 90s).

[leecemark]

--Thomas is ahead of Ramirez even though he has played longer and experienced some decline. Manny has some good years left in him, but does anybody think he is going to improve his rates over the rest of his career? I suppose its possible he'll end up with a better career than Thomas, but I wouldn't bet on it and I surely wouldn't rank him ahead now.

[Edgartohof]

I personally have Frank Thomas as my 4th best 1Bman all-time, good for 38th for position players, Manny, I do have in my top 100, at 86th, as my 10th best Left-fielder, very good, but still a far cry from Thomas. Now if he was a decent fielder, I could see it closer, but he certainly is not, he is just as much of a defensive liablility as Thomas is/was, so no help for him there.

Top 10 LF'ers:

1. Ted Williams
2. Stan Musial
3. Barry Bonds
4. Ed Delahanty
5. Rickey Henderson
6. Joe Jackson
7. Carl Yastrzemski
8. Al Simmons
9. Billy Williams
10. Manny Ramirez