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The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #20

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  • #16
    My ballot leaves all the pioneers (see #7) on the board.

    runoff
    Glasscock
    Richardson
    Caruthers
    Belle
    McVey
    Freehan
    Wynn
    Averill
    Murphy

    Jack Glasscock clearly belongs in Cooperstown and the others are reasonable selections. (If not, they wouldn't be reasonable selections for the first 250 slots here.)

    Earl Averill is in Cooperstown and all the others but Cal McVey have been slotted in Cooperstown "Purgatory" next door. All but Jimmy Wynn are in the BBF Hall of Fame. All but Albert Belle and Dale Murphy are in the Hall of Merit.
    --Thus Glasscock, Richardson, Caruthers, and Freehan are in all three of those shadow halls.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 09-04-2009, 11:26 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      1 Irvin
      2 Groh
      3 Edmonds
      4 Brown
      5 Sosa
      6 Hack
      7 Hernandez
      8 Faber
      9 Sutton
      10 Doerr
      11 Terry
      12 McGinnity
      13 Stovey
      14 Evans
      15 Perez N
      16 McGriff N
      17 Dean N
      18 Walker N

      Runoff
      1 Wynn J
      2 Glasscock
      3 Nettles
      4 Jennings
      5 Grant
      6 Caruthers
      7 Averill
      8 Lemon B
      9 Freehan
      Last edited by Freakshow; 09-15-2009, 02:18 PM. Reason: added no's
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

      Comment


      • #18
        1. Sosa - Y
        2. Irvin - Y
        3. Groh - Y
        4. McGinnity - Y
        5. Terry - Y
        6. Faber - Y
        7. Hack - Y
        8. Brown - Y
        9. McGriff - Y
        10. Hernandez - Y
        11. Walker - Y
        12. Dean - Y
        13. Perez - Y
        14. Doerr - Y
        15. Stovey - Y
        16. Sutton - Y
        17. Evans - Y
        18. Edmonds - Y

        Runoff

        1. Delgado
        2. Lemon
        3. Belle
        4. Helton
        5. Parker
        6. Murphy
        7. Rice
        8. Klein
        9. Nettles
        Last edited by John Shoemaker; 09-04-2009, 05:59 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Primary ballot

          1 Monte Irvin
          2 Heinie Groh
          3 Ezra Sutton
          4 Jim Edmonds
          5 Fred McGriff
          6 Keith Hernandez
          7 Kevin Brown
          8 Joe McGinnity
          9 Stan Hack
          10 Larry Walker

          Does everyone know that Monte Irvin was a star player by 1939, ten years before he signed with the New York Giants?
          G Man and I agree in slotting him number one here!
          (pause for others to edit their rankings)

          11 Harry Stovey
          12 Bobby Doerr
          13 Red Faber
          ------ ------ ----- Yes/No line
          14 Dwight Evans
          15 Bill Terry
          16 Sammy Sosa
          17 Tony Perez
          18 Dizzy Dean


          Runoff ballot repeated for convenience
          1 Glasscock
          2 Richardson
          3 Caruthers
          4 Belle
          5 McVey
          6 Freehan
          7 Wynn
          8 Averill
          9 Murphy
          Last edited by Paul Wendt; 09-06-2009, 11:37 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
            1 Monte Irvin

            Does everyone know that Monte Irvin was a star player by 1939, ten years before he signed with the New York Giants?
            G Man and I agree in slotting him number one here!
            He's gotten some other #1s (including mine), and is #2 for at least two more.

            Here's what I wrote about Irvin previously:

            Monte Irvin--ELECTED BBF HOF OCTOBER 2005

            People look at his MLB career of eight years but forget they start when he's 30 and that he broke his ankle quite badly when he was 33. It's easy to forget he lost about 10 years to the color line and WWII.

            His Negro League stats in Shadows of Glory, translated to 550 AB format are as follows:

            Code:
            
            AB runs  hits 2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  Sac  SB  avg  obp  slg  
            550  117  197  32   8  22  137  53   9  14  .358  .415  .564
            We know that his Negro League stats wouldn't have transferred over precisely, so what would his career have looked like with those 10 years? The best answer I can come up with starts with a APBA simulation of the franchise All-Stars of the Negro leagues prepared by David Lawrence. In the set I'm talking about, he takes the entire career of the player with the franchise he's carded with and translates it to an "average season" for the franchise. Since Irvin spent virtually all his time with the Newark Eagles, that helps. His method also eliminates problems caused by 30 to 50 game data samples. I then took those numbers from the Negro Leagues and translated them to major league numbers by mulitplying runs and RBI by 9 (.9 times 10) and walks all types of hits by 9.5 (.95 times 10) to account for the difference in leagues. The other stats were simply mutliplied by 10. There are no park adjustments in this projection, however. I'll then add that projected data to his actual MLB stats.

            Here's what we get:

            Code:
            G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SB	avg	obp	slg
            2144	8159	1506	2565	506	88	289	1703	1013	190	0.314	0.390	0.504
            Compare those numbers prorated to 1500 AB to what he did in 1950-1953 in the majors. His marks are as follows, despite losing 100 games in 1952 to a badly broken ankle:

            Code:
            ……………….......	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SB	avg	obp	slg
            Projection	1500	277	472	93	16	53	320	190	35	0.314	0.390	0.504
            1950-53 MLB	1502	237	471	61	22	64	305	206	17	0.314	0.381	0.511

            Those numbers match up quite well with the projection I gave for him. I think it is quite reasonable to think that 10 seasons before this stretch would help him hold the line against his decline phase, which lasted a mere 4 seasons. The biggest difference I see is that he lost his speed (I'd suggest due to a combination of age and the ankle injury.) In fact, I understand he reinjured the ankle badly in a collision at home plate on August 9, 1953. This could well account for his dropoff thereafter.


            I then used a database that ends with the 1998 season to come up with the most similar players using Similarity Scores. The top ten, in order from most similar to least similar are:


            Goose Goslin in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
            Al Simmons in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
            Harry Heilmann in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
            Dave Parker in neither, no votes in May
            Joe Medwick in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
            Bob Johnson in neither, no votes in May
            Jim Rice in neither, 1 of 34 votes in May
            George Brett in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
            Roberto Clemente in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
            Billy Williams in Cooperstown, 21 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF


            All his top 3 and 7 of his top 10 comparables are in Cooperstown , and 4 of the top ten comparables are in the BBF HOF. The three that are in Cooperstown but not in the BBFHOF have all garnered at least 40% (Goslin and Medwick had 14/34 in April) of the vote, one of them has achieved over 60%. If we gave all the four in the BBF the minimum for election of 26 votes, this group of ten would average over 15 (actually 15.1) votes. If we used the same approach but limited ourselves to the seven HOFers, the average would jump to over 21.5. Seems to me Monte deserves much more attention than those two measly votes in April followed by none in May.

            Note: In the Negro Leagues, he won 2 home run titles, per William McNeil on page 32 of Cool Papas and Double Duties

            Biography from Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 408:

            He signed with the Newark Eagles in 1937, playing under another name to protect his amateur standing, since he was in college. Irvin was a power hitter who also hit for high average, [winning] two batting titles in the Negro National League. . . . [He spearheaded the Eagles' 1946 victory] in the Negro World Series. . . .

            A versatile player, he played both infield and outfield with the Eagles. . . . In 1939, he hit .403 with good power, and followed with strong seasons of .377 and .400. {A contract hassle led him to go to Mexico in 1942, where he led in average (.397) and home runs (20), finished second in RBIs (79) in only 63 games, and won the MVP award. {Then . . . he was drafted . . . spending three years in military service. . . .

            After his three-year hiatus from baseball, Irvin felt a need for additional winter ball to work back into his prewar condition, and resumed pley in Latin America. Irvin [played on champions in both Cuba and Puerto Rico}. He posted a lifetime .355 average in Puerto Rico.. . .

            Before the war Irvin had been the Negro League owner's choice for the player to be the player to break the color line [but because of the war, Jackie Robinson became the one to do so].
            Also of note are the following: 1) Elected to Cooperstown; 2) 19th place in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats, and 3) the third best Negro League left-fielder in the opinion of Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract.

            Anyone interested in his career in the majors can conuslt baseballlibrary.com. and/or baseball-reference.com.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #21
              Irvin should have no problem sticking around this round. I'm not about to move him up on my list, however.

              Comment


              • #22
                Isn't it the "losers" who "stick around" here?


                For G Man, Tony Perez is near the top and Ezra Sutton near the bottom. For me it's vice versa. They are not the only such players, so it's notable that we both put Monte Irvin number one this week. Probably that shouldn't be enough to persuade anyone, but if that's the way the world is ...


                Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                Also of note are the following: 1) Elected to Cooperstown; 2) 19th place in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats, and 3) the third best Negro League left-fielder in the opinion of Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract.
                Irvin played third, short, second, and center in the Negro Leagues and in Mexico, where there was a relative talent shortage and when he was younger. In the majors he played first-right-left as a rookie, thereafter almost exclusively left.

                The Hall of Merit voted Monte Irvin number ten at LF in one of the special elections last year. That's just behind Billy Williams and ahead of Stargell, Heilmann, and Goslin among others. Irvin is the only player from the Negro Leagues ranked at LF. Bill James recognizes relatively few centerfielders and the Hall of Merit relatively many.
                Last edited by Paul Wendt; 09-06-2009, 11:38 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  bump. It's tough to compete with the present decade.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    We're waiting for one more of our regular voters to check in:

                    STLCards2

                    We'll give it another day or two then close it out.
                    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Results - Election #20

                      Code:
                      Rank		        Pts	 Ave	1st	No's
                      214	Monte Irvin	321	 5.8 	 5	 2
                      215	Heinie Groh	313	 6.5 	 0	 2
                      216	Joe McGinnity	302	 7.5 	 0	 1
                      217	Bill Terry	293	 8.4 	 0	 1
                      218	Stan Hack	291	 8.5 	 0	 0
                      219	Red Faber	290	 8.6 	 0	 0
                      220	Kevin Brown	288	 8.8 	 0	 3
                      221	Fred McGriff	288	 8.8 	 0	 4
                      222	Keith Hernandez	284	 9.2 	 1	 1
                      223	Larry Walker	276	 9.9 	 2	 5
                      224	Ezra Sutton	267	 10.7 	 1	 3
                      225	Bobby Doerr	267	 10.7 	 0	 2
                      226	Dizzy Dean	266	 10.8 	 0	 4
                      227	Tony Perez	264	 11.0 	 0	 4
                      Carried over to next election					
                      	Sammy Sosa	271	 10.4 	 2	 6
                      	Harry Stovey	263	 11.1 	 0	 3
                      	Jim Edmonds	256	 11.7 	 0	 4
                      	Dwight Evans	249	 12.4 	 0	 4
                      
                      Runoff Winners		Pts	Bal		
                      252	Bob Lemon	97	 8		
                      243	Earl Averill	84	 8		
                      251	Jimmy Wynn	84	 7		
                      260	Albert Belle	82	 7		
                      255	Todd Helton	67	 5		
                      221	Bill Freehan	65	 6		
                      Also-Ran					
                      261	Dale Murphy	62	 6		
                      240	Dave Parker	58	 5		
                      199	Carlos Delgado	56	 4		
                      256	Nellie Fox	55	 4
                      257	Frank Grant	51	 4
                      249	Jim Rice	49	 4
                      253	Jack Glasscock	41	 3
                      244	Chuck Klein	37	 3
                      263	Bob Caruthers	36	 3
                      264	Hughie Jennings	33	 3
                      230	Dickey Pearce	31	 2
                      254	Graig Nettles	30	 3
                      181	Rollie Fingers	29	 3
                      236	Roger Bresnahan	27	 2
                      262	Hugh Duffy	27	 2
                      248	H. Richardson	23	 2
                      250	Pete Browning	21	 2
                      259	Clark Griffith	16	 1
                      265	Dobie Moore	15	 1
                      266	Cal McVey	12	 1
                      258	Bruce Sutter	 0	 0
                      There were three big winners in this election. Monte Irvin broke the record for biggest gain, 32 places, from #246 to #214; Bill Terry advanced 24 places, from #241 to #217; Stan Hack was also up 24 places, from #242 to #218.

                      There was one big loser: Fred McGriff fell 30 spots from #191 to #221. Sammy Sosa continued his fall, getting a thumbs down from a majority of the voters; he'll end up at least 46 spots lower.

                      The Runoff winners that will appear on the next ballot are B. Lemon, Averill, J. Wynn, Belle, Helton and Freehan. (Points are now calculated on a 16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8 basis.)

                      See you in election #21.
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment

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