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  • #16
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    another way to look at stengel vs mccarthy is this way

    stengel braves vs mccarthy cubs
    mccarthy in a landlside
    As long as he had a lot to do with getting Hack Wilson, Riggs Stephenson & Charlie Root

    McCarthy inherited a pretty good Yanks team
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #17
      hack wilson is on record saying mccarthy was a great deal responsible for his success

      and i believe it was the ny giants under mcgraw who first had their shot at wilson and released him

      and wilson fell to nothing once mccarthy left


      Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
      As long as he had a lot to do with getting Hack Wilson, Riggs Stephenson & Charlie Root

      McCarthy inherited a pretty good Yanks team
      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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      • #18
        stengel won once in four managerial lives

        mccarthy won all three times

        measured by success of team
        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

          and wilson fell to nothing once mccarthy left
          Somehow he seemed successful keeping Hack off the bottle
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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          • #20
            Well, it seems pretty clear we're hardly leveling the playing field if we match the career records of McCarthy, all of whose teams were among the game's strongest organizations, and Stengel, who spent half his career mired with have-not clubs and a hopeless expansion team.

            For that matter, we really don't know that Doc Prothro, to pull a name out of a hat, wasn't a better manager than either of them. Prothro was successful in the minors, but in the majors he simply didn't have the horses. Obviously, Prothro would have had a much, much better record if he had managed the Yankees instead of the Phillies,. On the other hand, McCarthy would have done himself proud to win 60 games with Prothro's Phillies or 50 with Stengel's Mets. Fortunately for his reputation, he never had to try it.

            Was that entirely luck, though? I think it is fair to say this on McCarthy's behalf. Outstanding clubs like Yawkey's Red Sox and the late '20's Cubs, to say nothing of the Yankees, don't have managerial openings often. When such jobs do become available, they are highly desirable and the team will have its pick from a great number of strong applicants, with rarely a need to compromise by accepting a second choice. Joe McCarthy was in the habit of getting those jobs. and he never had to compromise on his side, either, by taking a lesser position. He took the very best jobs and disregarded the rest. That suggests a man who was exceptionally highly regarded by his contemporaries.

            Then again, when you can keep a job as long as Stengel did in Boston while running well below .500 for five straight seasons, you've given a genuinely impressive demonstration that you have your employers' full confidence. When I look at Stengel's and McCarthy's career records from this perspective, I don't see much to choose between them.
            “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

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            • #21
              [QUOTE=Fuzzy Bear;1709727}


              He's won with teams that were kind of mediocre.[/QUOTE]

              The 1989 team was a huge favorite, and the injury- masacred 2006 team had a core group of players that won 205 games the previous 2 years. Now the 2002 team that went to the NLCS with S.F. with Jason Simmontachi and a previously retired Andy Benes as their best 2nd half pitchers following the death of Kile, was a remarkable managerial perfromance. 1988, 1990, 2004, 2005? Not so much. All four of those teams had over 100 wins and 3/4 lost to lesser opponents. The 2004 Red Sox team was probably better.
              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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              • #22
                so stengel won with the team with a minor league affiliate in their own 8 team league and lost horribly with every one else

                and mccarthy just won

                that is equal?

                why were the mets so bad, the angels were an expansion team, they did ok the astros/colts did better than the mets

                what was the mets secret to being terrible?

                stengel failed 3 of 4 managers attempts

                mccarthy had the best win % of all time

                equal?





                Originally posted by Beady View Post
                Well, it seems pretty clear we're hardly leveling the playing field if we match the career records of McCarthy, all of whose teams were among the game's strongest organizations, and Stengel, who spent half his career mired with have-not clubs and a hopeless expansion team.

                For that matter, we really don't know that Doc Prothro, to pull a name out of a hat, wasn't a better manager than either of them. Prothro was successful in the minors, but in the majors he simply didn't have the horses. Obviously, Prothro would have had a much, much better record if he had managed the Yankees instead of the Phillies,. On the other hand, McCarthy would have done himself proud to win 60 games with Prothro's Phillies or 50 with Stengel's Mets. Fortunately for his reputation, he never had to try it.

                Was that entirely luck, though? I think it is fair to say this on McCarthy's behalf. Outstanding clubs like Yawkey's Red Sox and the late '20's Cubs, to say nothing of the Yankees, don't have managerial openings often. When such jobs do become available, they are highly desirable and the team will have its pick from a great number of strong applicants, with rarely a need to compromise by accepting a second choice. Joe McCarthy was in the habit of getting those jobs. and he never had to compromise on his side, either, by taking a lesser position. He took the very best jobs and disregarded the rest. That suggests a man who was exceptionally highly regarded by his contemporaries.

                Then again, when you can keep a job as long as Stengel did in Boston while running well below .500 for five straight seasons, you've given a genuinely impressive demonstration that you have your employers' full confidence. When I look at Stengel's and McCarthy's career records from this perspective, I don't see much to choose between them.
                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                  so stengel won with the team with a minor league affiliate in their own 8 team league and lost horribly with every one else

                  and mccarthy just won

                  that is equal?

                  why were the mets so bad, the angels were an expansion team, they did ok the astros/colts did better than the mets

                  what was the mets secret to being terrible?

                  stengel failed 3 of 4 managers attempts

                  mccarthy had the best win % of all time

                  equal?
                  Do you honestly believe that McCarthy or anyone would have done any better with theose horrible teams Stengel had with the Dodgers, Braves or Mets? A bad manager can keep a good team from winning but a good manager can't make a bad team a winner.

                  No denying McCarthy had a great record, but he was fortunate that the Yankee ownership was willing to be patient with one title in McCarthy's first 5 seasons, after winning 6 pennants the previous decade. Then in 1936 Dimaggio came to the Yankees and McCarthy suddenly became a smarter manager, as the Yanks became virtually unbeatable with the best all round player in the game in CF.

                  McCarthy had a serious problem with alcoholism, I don't know if it had anything to do with him leaving NY in 1946, but it was behind him leaving Boston in 1950, according to Williams biographer Ed Linn. A bigger reason was that the Red Sox had lost the pennant on the final day of the season in 1948, when McCarthy, for some inexplicable reason picked 7-8 Denny Galehouse to start the playoff over Cleveland instead of 15 game winner Mel Parnell and again in 1949, when the Sox went into Yankee Stadium for the final 2 games of the season, needing just 1 win for the pennant and were swept by the Yankees, blowing a 4-0 lead on Saturday's game. For the record, 1949 was the only season Stengel and McCarthy managed against each other and NY won 13 of the 22 games. Even though McCarthy was only 3 years older than Stengel, he never managed again after leaving Boston in 1950, don't know if his drinking problem had made him toxic to other owners, although he certainly wasn't the only manager at the time with boozing problems.

                  I'd go with Casey's record with the Yanks, 10 pennants in 12 years, with 7WS wins and in the 3 WS he lost, it went to a 7th game that was close. In one of the years he didn't win, 1954, he actually had his best team, winning 103 games.

                  In any case, managers get far too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose.
                  It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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                  • #24
                    I'd go with Casey's record with the Yanks, 10 pennants in 12 years

                    It helps when a team from KC gives giving you their best players year after year and they include Maris, (MVP), Slaughter, Terry, Ditmar, Cerv, Boyer, etc etc etc.

                    . Then in 1936 Dimaggio came to the Yankees and McCarthy suddenly became a smarter manager, as the Yanks became virtually unbeatable with the best all round player in the game in CF
                    For the record, 1949 was the only season Stengel and McCarthy managed against each other and NY won 13 of the 22 games

                    and which team in 1949 had that best all around player
                    When McCarthy did not win he might have finished second or third, when Stengel did not win he was a good bet to finish 7th or 8th

                    I don't know if it had anything to do with him leaving NY in 1946

                    according to 1 book I read, the Yankees panicked when they fell way behind the Red Sox early in the season

                    McCarthy suddenly became a smarter manager

                    that is a BETTER description of Stengel who failed miserably in two managerial lives prior to Yankees and one after


                    I'd go with Casey's record with the Yanks, 10 pennants in 12 years, with 7WS wins

                    McCarthy had 8 pennants and THE SAME 7 world championships with NY, plus a pennant with Chicago, plus MUCH better teams in his CHicago/Boston days than Stengel's horrible losers in his three other stints
                    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 03-28-2010, 09:32 AM.
                    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Stengel with all 4 teams = .508
                      Stengel with Braves, Dodgers, Yankees (minus Mets) = .565
                      Stengel with Yankees only = .623

                      McCarthy with every team he managed = .615


                      List of baseball teams .640 or above managed by either Stengel or McCarthy:

                      MCCarthy:
                      1. 1929 Cubs .645
                      2. 1932 Yankees .695
                      3. 1936 Yankees .667
                      4. 1937 Yankees .662
                      5. 1938 Yankees .651
                      6. 1939 Yankees .702
                      7. 1941 Yankees .656
                      8. 1942 Yankees .669

                      Stengel
                      1. 1953 Yankees .656
                      2. 1954 Yankees .669

                      List teams under .500 managed by Stengel and McCarthy

                      Stengel
                      1. 1934 Dodgers .467
                      2. 1935 Dodgers .458
                      3. 1936 Dodgers .435
                      4. 1939 Braves .417
                      5. 1940 Braves .428
                      6. 1941 Braves .403
                      7. 1942 Braves .399
                      8. 1943 Braves .439
                      9. 1962 Mets .250
                      10. 1963 Mets .315
                      11. 1964 Mets .327
                      12 1965 Mets .326

                      McCarthy
                      NONE


                      McCarthy's worst Yankee team 1945 - .533
                      Stengel's worst Yankee team - 1959 .513

                      while no one can expect great things from an expansion team, managing the WORST team of all time (1962 Mets) is hardly a good thing on your resume, even finishing last would be acceptable, but being piitiful means you did not contribute anything, or even helped make the team worse than it was


                      where they finished
                      Stengel - 8 team league
                      1st - 10
                      2nd - 1
                      3rd - 1
                      4th - 0
                      5th - 2
                      6th -2
                      7th - 5
                      10th - 4 (10 team league)
                      Stengles bell curve is the opposite of normal, very good teams or horrible teams

                      MCCarthy - 8 team league
                      1st - 9
                      2nd - 7
                      3rd - 5
                      4th - 2
                      MCarthy's bell curve is a straight line from excellent to very good


                      SUMMARY
                      Franchises managed Stengel 4, McCarthy 3
                      Franchises managed to pennants Stengel 1 McCarthy 2
                      Pennants Stengel 10, McCarthy 9
                      World Championships McCarthy 7, Stengel 7
                      First or second finishes - McCarthy 16, Stengel - 11
                      First, second or third place finishes - McCarthy 21, Stengel 12
                      Under .500 finishes - McCarthy 0, Stengel 12
                      Teams over .640 MCarthy 8 Stengel 2
                      all time record MCarthy .615 (best in history), Stengel .508

                      MCarthy's best team - 1939 Yankees .702, won 4th straight world series, sweeping 4-0, scored 967 runs alllowed 556, net of +409, I believe the highest in history
                      McCarthy's worst team - 1950 Red Sox (.525 in partial season). last team to hit .300 as a team in history
                      Stengels best team - 1954 Yankees - .669 finished second 8 games out, runs 805 runs allowed 563, net of +242
                      Stengels worst team - 1962 Mets, worst team in history .250
                      Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 03-28-2010, 10:31 AM.
                      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hobbs, as always I love your selective use of statistics. But you never answered my original question, do you really think McCarthy would have done any better with the terrible players Stengel had on the Dodgers, Braves and Mets?

                        Given that Stengel proved himself to be one helluva manager when he had the horses, I don't doubt that he wouldn't as done just as well as McCarthy did with the Cubs and Yankees and possibly had brought the Red Sox to the pennant in the close races they lost in 48 & 49, given that McCarthy was having very bad problems with the boozing by then.

                        BTW, in 1949 the Yanks best player, Dimaggio was hurt half the season.

                        McCarthy's superb record of 4 consecutive WS wins between 36-39 was only topped by one manager and I think you know who that is.
                        It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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                        • #27
                          actually my list was COMPREHENSIVE not selcetive

                          so all facts presented are just dismissed casually and what ifs and opinions take precedent?? too funny

                          penants won world championships won all time winning % are not selcetive

                          it is as if hack wilson should be judged by only 1929-30 and the rest of his career dismissed as meaningless and selective use of statistics

                          and jackie moore is a better manager than Tony La Russa cause in their only head to head post season series, moores team swept la russas (see 1949 example YOU brought up)

                          and you say I use selective arguments?

                          we know the history of the two

                          mccarthy's record is much more impressive

                          all second guessing and theorizing and woulda coulda shoulda are just that - folly

                          the true measure of a manager is his entire career not what he did only with great teams or only with bad teams

                          everything

                          what stengel did woth the yankees was great, even though much help was given by the KC pipeline which makes it tarnished at the least

                          what he did with other franchises can not be excused away or erased from the board

                          its in the record books

                          and we are measuring the best manager

                          not the best manager, only in his good years, only with his good teams, only when the KC pipeline existed

                          Originally posted by 64Cards View Post
                          Hobbs, as always I love your selective use of statistics. But you never answered my original question, do you really think McCarthy would have done any better with the terrible players Stengel had on the Dodgers, Braves and Mets?

                          Given that Stengel proved himself to be one helluva manager when he had the horses, I don't doubt that he wouldn't as done just as well as McCarthy did with the Cubs and Yankees and possibly had brought the Red Sox to the pennant in the close races they lost in 48 & 49, given that McCarthy was having very bad problems with the boozing by then.

                          BTW, in 1949 the Yanks best player, Dimaggio was hurt half the season.

                          McCarthy's superb record of 4 consecutive WS wins between 36-39 was only topped by one manager and I think you know who that is.
                          Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 03-28-2010, 11:53 AM.
                          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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                          • #28
                            PS the Oakland A's won more consecutive post season series than Stengels yankees

                            I guess that makes Dick Williams and Alvin Dark better than Stengel

                            -------------------------

                            PS and yes the A's won three short division series in that run

                            if the Yankees had to play short series that would have lost in 1952 (down 3-2 at one point) and 1958 (down 3-1 at one point)
                            Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 03-28-2010, 11:44 AM.
                            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              and forgot to mention

                              the 1939 Yankees, which some consider the best team of all time and definitely a top 5

                              did this despite losing the all time ML best first basemen Lou Gehrig

                              he currently leads the poll on this site 34-3 over his nearest competitor

                              if Gehrig had been on that team it would have been frightening
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                So Stengel is far ahead with 11, and McGraw and McCarthy have each other matched at 7 apiece... Sparky anderson is threatening with 5, and still in the running, Connie Mack and Tony La Russa with 4...
                                "Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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