Did Bunning deserve induction?

[Jake]

I know he got in by veterans cmte, but looking at his stats, I don't think he merited induction.

Thoughts?

[leecemark]

--My thought is he only got in because he is Sen Jim Bunning. He was a fine pitcher, but there are plenty of guys as good or better who have been passed over (although some worse who haven't).

[julusnc]

Jim Bunning knew the right people at the right time and got the nod...

Does he deserve his plaque? Nopers.

[iPod]

The thing I've often heard about Jim Bunning is that his stuff was so overpowering that when he was relieved, the opposing team would be so used to Bunning's stuff that they would feast on the relievers. Bill James notes this may have cost Bunning a good chunk of wins. I don't know how true this is, as it doesn't seem like it should be any more true of Bunning than other pitchers of that period with great stuff, but its worth mentioning I suppose.

[ElHalo]

See, I feel that Bunning is one of the top 35 or so pitchers in the Hall, and is well beyond just deserving. The perfect game helps.

[abacab]

Bunning is an OK choice for a HoFer. His W-L isn't much but he never played for a team that finished first. The closest he got to the postseason was the infamous 1964 Phillies, for which he was overworked down the stretch and consequently lost several key games. His career ERA+ is 114, which isn't impressive either, but he had four years when it was over 140. Only one Cy Young Award was given out during his career, so he never won it. Had there been AL and NL awards while he played, he would have won in 1957 and 1967. Bunning was often among the leaders in innings pitched and complete games. He also allowed a lot of home runs and hit a lot of batters (but didn't walk a lot, which is weird). All things considered, he had enough standout years to be a Hall of Famer.

[DoubleX]

I'd take Blyleven over Bunning any day.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bunning is an OK choice for a HoFer. His W-L isn't much but he never played for a team that finished first. The closest he got to the postseason was the infamous 1964 Phillies, for which he was overworked down the stretch and consequently lost several key games. His career ERA+ is 114, which isn't impressive either, but he had four years when it was over 140. Only one Cy Young Award was given out during his career, so he never won it. Had there been AL and NL awards while he played, he would have won in 1957 and 1967. Bunning was often among the leaders in innings pitched and complete games. He also allowed a lot of home runs and hit a lot of batters (but didn't walk a lot, which is weird). All things considered, he had enough standout years to be a Hall of Famer.

Agreed, abacab on Bunning(you want it, you got it) but I think 1967 was the first year both leagues gave awards. Mike McCormack of San Francisco took the NL Award.

I don't agree with Bunning getting in because he was a Senator. He was hovering around the 50% mark before he was elected to Congress. It may have given him some recognition, but he hardly came from nowhere. Technically, he was serving in the U.S. House of Representatives when he was elected to the HOF.

[leecemark]

--Abacab, If you don't walk many, but do hit alot of batters my guess would be that isn't wildness. He just liked to throw at hitters. As to the CY Young's it wouldn't have mattered if both leagues were giving one in 1967. The actual winner was from Bunning's league (Mike McCormick). He probably was the best AL pitcher in 1957 (his only 20 win season) and likely would have won. Billy Pierce would have given him a run for the CY though.
--Bunning was not popular with the press or fellow players when active and didn't have a pre-57 track record of success. Pierce was popular, did have the track record and had a season which I don't think was quite as good, but which would have made him a solid candidate. If what you meant was Bunning was the best pitcher in his league in both 57 and 67, that is probably true.

[abacab]

Really, XX? Even on this day?

[abacab]

If what you meant was Bunning was the best pitcher in his league in both 57 and 67, that is probably true.

Yeah, I meant he should have won the award those years.

[DoubleX]

Really, XX? Even on this day?

Well I suppose not on that day, but Blyleven does have a no-hitter as well as 5 one-hitters.

[abacab]

Well I suppose not on that day, but Blyleven does have a no-hitter as well as 5 one-hitters.

I did not know that. Cool. Is there somewhere you can look up one-hitters?

By the way (at the risk of turning this into yet another Blyleven thread), this article is less than flattering to say the least. How accurate do you think this is? I had heard that he was difficult but this piece implies that he was despised just about everywhere he went. That reputation might be holding him back in HoF voting, just as it might have held back Bunning (as Leecemark noted).

[DoubleX]

Interesting article abacab, wouldn't surprise me any. If his attitude has soured his reputation with the writers, it certainly hasn't effected his reputation with his contemporaries. Several Hall of Famers who played with and against Blyleven say he belongs. Hopefully that bodes well for his VC candidacy one day, if it comes to that (and it's looking that way right now).

As for the one-hitters, box-scores of Blyleven's games will confirm that. However, I initially learned about the 5 one-hitters from an article, I can't remember if it was USA Today article or an article linked to bertblyeven.com. Sorry I can't be more specific right now.

Anyway, I agree with you, we shouldn't turn this into another Blyleven thread. I apologize for creating this tangent.

[leecemark]

Ranking the hall of fame pitchers

--I took a quick look a quick look at the pitchers in the Hall of Fame and broke them up in 4 groups. I skipped over the Negro Leaguers and relief pitchers for this list. I also didn't do any reference checking and could probably be convinced I'm off one up or down on many of these guys.

The Elite
Alexander
Carlton
Feller
Gibson
Grove
Hubbell
Johnson
Mathewson
Nichols
Seaver
Spahn
Young
(Clemens, Maddux and Johnson will one day join this group)

The Obvious
Brown
Clarkson
Coveleski
Dean (it is the hall of FAME after all)
Ford
Galvin
Jenkins
Keefe
Koufax
Lemon
Lyons
Marichal
McGinnity
Newhouser
Neikro
Palmer
Perry
Plank
Radbourne
Roberts
Ryan
Rusie
Vance
walch
Waddell
Welch
(Martinez and Glavine will fit here)

The Borderline
Bender
Bunning
Drysdale
Faber
Gomez
Grimes
Haines
Hoyt
Hunter
Pennock
Rixey
Ruffing
Sutton
Willis
Wynn
(There are probably a dozen or more guys who aren't in and would fit neatly into this group. Blyleven and Mays are two who are clearly north of the border and should be in.)
The Mistakes
Chesbro
Joss (sorry no 10 years, no sale)
Marquard