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  • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

    I guess this hits home that whatever we do, we have a head scratching decision or three to most folks, mine is not supporting Richie Ashburn and that seems like a bigger blunder on the face than O'Rourke, but he's so bad by Thress review due to his defense looking to be severely overrated. It's unpopular, but I'm ok leaving him outside my hall.

    My big point is, PARC-d is better than anything I'm aware of publically available that summarizes a player's value into 1 number, much better than raw WAR, WS, WARP, etc, that it's a great tool for us to look at, even if we quibble with a few of the results.
    There's nothing wrong with averaging the various metrics, which is what I do. I personally think it's possible Ashburn was worth as little as 40-50 FRAA, but of course that still makes him an easy HOF'er.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

      I guess this hits home that whatever we do, we have a head scratching decision or three to most folks, mine is not supporting Richie Ashburn and that seems like a bigger blunder on the face than O'Rourke, but he's so bad by Thress review due to his defense looking to be severely overrated. It's unpopular, but I'm ok leaving him outside my hall.

      My big point is, PARC-d is better than anything I'm aware of publically available that summarizes a player's value into 1 number, much better than raw WAR, WS, WARP, etc, that it's a great tool for us to look at, even if we quibble with a few of the results.
      More head scratching for me are Eric and Miller's inclusion of Curt Flood, Dr. Frank Jobe, Ban Johnson, Davey Johnson on the contributor's side.

      As far as Ashburn, to each his own. Every other measure as well as historical research suggest Thress' formula is way off. If you choose to ignore that, whatever. I'm not bothering with history/contextual understanding on O'Rourke or Ashburn, since you and BTA are extreme outliers on those two in your assumptions and I get the feeling neither one of you care to read historical narrative, so it'd be a colossal waste of my time to go that route.
      Last edited by jjpm74; 01-26-2020, 04:25 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

        You first after dropping Drysdale and Newhouser.
        Newhouser had too much WWII time. He isn't getting back in. My personal HoF was too big I got soft. I loved baseball too hard and had everyone in. Drysdale might slide back in but he'll be on the edge.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

          More head scratching for me are Eric and Miller's inclusion of Curt Flood, Dr. Frank Jobe, Ban Johnson, Davey Johnson on the contributor's side.

          As far as Ashburn, to each his own. Every other measure as well as historical research suggest Thress' formula is way off. If you choose to ignore that, whatever. I'm not bothering with history/contextual understanding on O'Rourke or Ashburn, since you and BTA are extreme outliers on those two in your assumptions and I get the feeling neither one of you care to read historical narrative, so it'd be a colossal waste of my time to go that route.
          None of you did with Ray Schalk and it was a huge waste of my time.

          Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

          I guess this hits home that whatever we do, we have a head scratching decision or three to most folks, mine is not supporting Richie Ashburn and that seems like a bigger blunder on the face than O'Rourke, but he's so bad by Thress review due to his defense looking to be severely overrated. It's unpopular, but I'm ok leaving him outside my hall.

          My big point is, PARC-d is better than anything I'm aware of publically available that summarizes a player's value into 1 number, much better than raw WAR, WS, WARP, etc, that it's a great tool for us to look at, even if we quibble with a few of the results.
          • Lifelong Phillies fan, very much appreciate Ashburn but I think that O'Rourke would be a bigger omission.
          • Who O'Rourke or Ashburn?
          Last edited by bluesky5; 01-26-2020, 07:02 PM.
          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

            Good luck on your end as well. Your latest adds and subtracts is up there with when nerdlinger decided Sandy Koufax wasn't a HOFer.
            Oh, look! Bait! Unnecessary, unprovoked bait! Sorry, not stooping to it.
            *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

            Comment


            • The OP has (finally) been updated. As you can see, BBF has finally defeated me and made it wholly impractical to display large text-based tables. Last year, it removed all the multiple spaces in the tables, so I had to replace each space with a dot. Now it has decided to add spaces throughout the tables so that the columns don't line up properly. Why? Who knows?

              So I tried converting the tables to images, and as it turns out, some are too large to be posted as a single image, and there is apparently a limit of 5 images per post. That's why only the HOF, Futures, and HOH are actually posted as images, albeit squished ones you have to view in another tab. The others link out to imgur. Terrible.

              Incidentally, on the off chance you're wondering how long this update took, it was about 8 hours. That's a big reason why I'm down to one per year.

              Anyway, welcome to NJRob65 as our newest voter! With this update, Derek Jeter joined the Hall while Earl Averill, Ray Dandridge, Sherry Magee, and Vic Willis fell out. No change to the Hall of Honor. Recent actual HOF inductees Ted Simmons and Larry Walker were already members of the HOF here, as was Marvin Miller of the HOH.

              As for my own ballot/hall, Bobby Abreu and Derek Jeter rolled over from Futures to the main hall, I added Ernie Lombardi and Red Ruffing, and I dropped Ron Guidry.
              Last edited by Nerdlinger; 01-26-2020, 07:40 PM.
              *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nerdlinger View Post

                Oh, look! Bait! Unnecessary, unprovoked bait! Sorry, not stooping to it.
                There is no "bait" there. Everyone who follows this thread knows you rectified that and revised your approach to a level we all appreciate. Relax and thanks for taking all that time to update the OP. That must have been a real headache!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                  None of you did with Ray Schalk and it was a huge waste of my time.[/LIST]
                  Not really. You shed new light on his case.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                    More head scratching for me are Eric and Miller's inclusion of Curt Flood, Dr. Frank Jobe, Ban Johnson, Davey Johnson on the contributor's side.

                    As far as Ashburn, to each his own. Every other measure as well as historical research suggest Thress' formula is way off. If you choose to ignore that, whatever. I'm not bothering with history/contextual understanding on O'Rourke or Ashburn, since you and BTA are extreme outliers on those two in your assumptions and I get the feeling neither one of you care to read historical narrative, so it'd be a colossal waste of my time to go that route.
                    I'll search for the numbers first, but the earlier in the time we travel, the less reliable they will be, and a historical narrative can help shape our understanding. Thress research SCREAMS Ashburn as a poor selection, his arguments are convincing enough for me personally to leave him short of hall status, but like I said, I'm ok with wearing egg on my face for this one.

                    Curious on your feelings for the contributors you see as mistakes?

                    For Davey Johnson, he comes off as underrated by jalbright's musings, placing the highest of non-HOF managers, plus he was a good player, I have him in as a combo case.
                    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...0=#post3000193
                    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nerdlinger View Post
                      The OP has (finally) been updated. As you can see, BBF has finally defeated me and made it wholly impractical to display large text-based tables. Last year, it removed all the multiple spaces in the tables, so I had to replace each space with a dot. Now it has decided to add spaces throughout the tables so that the columns don't line up properly. Why? Who knows?

                      So I tried converting the tables to images, and as it turns out, some are too large to be posted as a single image, and there is apparently a limit of 5 images per post. That's why only the HOF, Futures, and HOH are actually posted as images, albeit squished ones you have to view in another tab. The others link out to imgur. Terrible.

                      Incidentally, on the off chance you're wondering how long this update took, it was about 8 hours. That's a big reason why I'm down to one per year.

                      Anyway, welcome to NJRob65 as our newest voter! With this update, Derek Jeter joined the Hall while Earl Averill, Ray Dandridge, Sherry Magee, and Vic Willis fell out. No change to the Hall of Honor. Recent actual HOF inductees Ted Simmons and Larry Walker were already members of the HOF here, as was Marvin Miller of the HOH.

                      As for my own ballot/hall, Bobby Abreu and Derek Jeter rolled over from Futures to the main hall, I added Ernie Lombardi and Red Ruffing, and I dropped Ron Guidry.
                      Thanks Nerdlinger, if you find time, would be cool to see you re-run the most similar hall analysis you had, maybe early 2019?
                      It started around this post, you were kind enough to do a run against my hall?
                      https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...16#post3512816
                      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                      http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                        I'll search for the numbers first, but the earlier in the time we travel, the less reliable they will be, and a historical narrative can help shape our understanding. Thress research SCREAMS Ashburn as a poor selection, his arguments are convincing enough for me personally to leave him short of hall status, but like I said, I'm ok with wearing egg on my face for this one.

                        Curious on your feelings for the contributors you see as mistakes?

                        For Davey Johnson, he comes off as underrated by jalbright's musings, placing the highest of non-HOF managers, plus he was a good player, I have him in as a combo case.
                        https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...0=#post3000193
                        1. Curt Flood -- Sued MLB and lost. Why does this make him a HOFer?
                        2. Dr. Frank Jobe--operated on Tommy John. What makes him a baseball HOFer? Does that mean the guy who first exposed CTE should go into the NFL HOF?
                        3. Ban Johnson--gambling and corruption were rampant under his leadership. That and Frazee are enough to keep him far away from deserving the HOF.
                        4. Davey Johnson--Lots of success, career is too short for a case as a manager and his ball playing wasn't anything to warrant any kind of combo case. If you like a combo case for Johnson, do you also support Randolph as a combo case?
                        Last edited by jjpm74; 01-27-2020, 12:53 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                          1. Curt Flood -- Sued MLB and lost. Why does this make him a HOFer?
                          2. Dr. Frank Jobe--operated on Tommy John. What makes him a baseball HOFer? Does that mean the guy who first exposed CTE should go into the NFL HOF?
                          3. Ban Johnson--gambling and corruption were rampant under his leadership. That and Frazee are enough to keep him far away from deserving the HOF.
                          4. Davey Johnson--Lots of success, career is too short for a case as a manager and his ball playing wasn't anything to warrant any kind of combo case. If you like a combo case for Johnson, do you also support Randolph as a combo case?
                          Thanks for the comments...

                          For #4, Davey as a manager is borderline or at least close for me, adding 30 wins makes him a fine combo pick to me. For Randolph, I have him worthy as a player so I fortunately don't have to contemplate that one.

                          For #2, how much credit to we give to a guy with a surgery that has a lasting and hugely positive impact on the sport? Agreed that performing on Tommy John himself isn't that noteworthy, but pitchers have a great debt in having careers salvaged.
                          Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-27-2020, 02:50 PM.
                          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                            For #2, how much credit to we give to a guy with a surgery that has a lasting and hugely positive impact on the sport? Agreed that performing on Tommy John himself isn't that noteworthy, but pitchers have a great debt in having careers salvaged.
                            Jobe is a doctor with no direct connection to MLB. Electing him would be like electing Kevin Costner for his role in Field of Dreams. Why not also elect Lena Blackburne? His baseball mud has been used by every major and minor league team for the past 75 years.

                            http://www.baseballrubbingmud.com/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                              Thanks Nerdlinger, if you find time, would be cool to see you re-run the most similar hall analysis you had, maybe early 2019?
                              It started around this post, you were kind enough to do a run against my hall?
                              https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...16#post3512816
                              Here's your current list of comparison scores (pre-2015 players only):

                              Jar of Flies
                              1. Chadwick (70.6)
                              2. Bothrops Atrox (61.1)
                              3. jalbright (56.7)
                              4. TheSlaff (46.1)
                              5. SavoyBG (45.7)
                              6. leecemark (44.7)
                              7. baltimorechop (44.4)
                              8. jjpm74 (42.7)
                              9. Richard Stark (42.3)
                              10. Nerdlinger (40.6)
                              11. AstrosFan (37.9)
                              12. TheMendozaLine (36.5)
                              13. pedrosrotatorcuff (35.5)
                              14. blade1969 (33.1)
                              15. EnterSandman (32.8)
                              15. layson27 (32.8)
                              17. dgarza (32.4)
                              18. bluesky5 (32.1)
                              19. Toledo Inquisition (30.7)
                              20. Ace Venom (29.0)
                              21. The Dude (28.7)
                              22. BlueBlood (27.6)
                              22. adarowski (27.6)
                              24. Cowtipper (26.3)
                              24. Yankillaz (26.3)
                              26. NJRob65 (24.2)
                              27. Tyrus4189Cobb (23.9)
                              28. John Shoemaker (23.5)
                              29. Domenic (21.2)
                              30. hairmetalfreek (19.1)
                              31. JR Hart (18.8)
                              32. Herr28 (15.0)
                              33. Sockeye (14.7)
                              33. Second Base Coach (14.7)
                              35. Los Bravos (12.3)
                              36. 1905 Giants (10.6)
                              37. Ducati12 (10.2)
                              38. wrgptfan (1.7)
                              39. stejay (0.3)
                              40. henrich (-5.1)
                              41. RapDixon (-6.5)
                              42. MadHatter (-18.4)
                              43. Cougar (-22.2)
                              43. Stieb37 (-22.2)
                              45. dwj21792 (-31.4)

                              You and Chadwick share 276 players. You have 17 he does not, and he has 52 you do not.
                              Last edited by Nerdlinger; 01-27-2020, 05:00 PM.
                              *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nerdlinger View Post

                                Here's your current list of comparison scores (pre-2015 players only):

                                Jar of Flies
                                1. Chadwick (70.6)
                                2. Bothrops Atrox (61.1)
                                3. jalbright (56.7)
                                4. TheSlaff (46.1)
                                5. SavoyBG (45.7)
                                6. leecemark (44.7)
                                7. baltimorechop (44.4)
                                8. jjpm74 (42.7)
                                9. Richard Stark (42.3)
                                10. Nerdlinger (40.6)
                                11. AstrosFan (37.9)
                                12. TheMendozaLine (36.5)
                                13. pedrosrotatorcuff (35.5)
                                14. blade1969 (33.1)
                                15. EnterSandman (32.8)
                                15. layson27 (32.8)
                                17. dgarza (32.4)
                                18. bluesky5 (32.1)
                                19. Toledo Inquisition (30.7)
                                20. Ace Venom (29.0)
                                21. The Dude (28.7)
                                22. BlueBlood (27.6)
                                22. adarowski (27.6)
                                24. Cowtipper (26.3)
                                24. Yankillaz (26.3)
                                26. NJRob65 (24.2)
                                27. Tyrus4189Cobb (23.9)
                                28. John Shoemaker (23.5)
                                29. Domenic (21.2)
                                30. hairmetalfreek (19.1)
                                31. JR Hart (18.8)
                                32. Herr28 (15.0)
                                33. Sockeye (14.7)
                                33. Second Base Coach (14.7)
                                35. Los Bravos (12.3)
                                36. 1905 Giants (10.6)
                                37. Ducati12 (10.2)
                                38. wrgptfan (1.7)
                                39. stejay (0.3)
                                40. henrich (-5.1)
                                41. RapDixon (-6.5)
                                42. MadHatter (-18.4)
                                43. Cougar (-22.2)
                                43. Stieb37 (-22.2)
                                45. dwj21792 (-31.4)

                                You and Chadwick share 276 players. You have 17 he does not, and he has 52 you do not.
                                Interesting how the person saying JOF has a drastically fundamental difference in player evaluation approach is 8th out of 45 in most similar ballots.
                                Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-27-2020, 05:24 PM.
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