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  • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    I know this is a long time ago. But would you give me your opinion on Dennis Martinez? Your observations from seeing him live. As well as Darrell and Dwight Evans and Vida Blue? Blue and Dewey are particularly on the edge for me. I’m guessing you didn’t see prime Blue?
    When Dennis Martinez was right, he was spectacular. Electric stuff; he hadn't totally harnessed it in Baltimore, so he was a little wild and inconsistent, and then he had a Lost Weekend that lasted a few years when alcoholism overwhelmed him, plus the typical cornucopia of arm ailments et cetera that almost always bedevil pitchers to some extent.

    Martinez dried out, God bless him, and he landed in Montreal with low expectations and zero attention; he then did the best work of his career. Later, his pitches lost some snap as he got deep into his thirties, but he stayed effective with guile for quite some time; he was one of the better pitchers on the early Cleveland teams full of mashers in the 1990s. Hung on a little too long seeking Juan Marichal's wins mark for Latinos; passed him by one or two and retired. (Bartolo Colon passed Martinez a few years back.)

    I'll be briefer on the other guys.

    Darrell Evans was usually more steady than spectacular, as is often true of position players who draw a lot of their value from bases on balls. He had the two 40 home run seasons over a decade apart, but he was more generally a guy that gave you pretty good defense with 20ish home runs, a surfeit of fly ball outs, (he hit everything in the air), and a slew of walks that compensated for a middling BA. A TTO guy with a nice 3b glove (in his twenties, anyway) that could cover several positions passably.

    The most famous thing about Dewey Evans was his arm. Probably 90% of Clemente's at his peak. He was overshadowed big-time on the 1970s Red Sox by Yaz, Lynn, Rice, Fisk, Scott, Tiant, Lee, Rooster - jeez, those teams were loaded. But he was very valuable to those teams because he could cover Fenway's vast right field - his range was great too; he could have easily played center, but Fenway's right field was almost as big and Dewey's arm belonged in right. He also didn't hit much in the 70's but he didn't need to on those teams, plus he walked a lot which was kind of hidden value in those days.

    Most of the stars mentioned above on the 70s Sox went elsewhere, faded, and/or retired when the 80s came; meanwhile, Evans enteting his thirties improved his OBP and developed good home run power. (His defense started to fade, though; his last couple GG's were reputational.) Suddenly he was a centerpiece of Boston's offense, usually batting between Boggs and Rice, and had two or three seasons where he was a legit MVP candidate.

    I don't remember Blue on the A's, just the Giants, but he was pretty good for them. A lefty with a good heater and some nasty breaking stuff. 1971 was definitely a career year and probably a little fluky; for the Giants, he was a definite #1 pitcher but not really a superstar outside of the fading corona of the A's years. Crashed quickly in the 1980s amid big nose candy troubles...hard to say whether it was mostly because of that or just typical age-related decline; surely some of both.

    This is all off memory, didn't even peek at B-R; if I got anything wrong, mea culpa.

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    • Originally posted by Cougar View Post

      When Dennis Martinez was right, he was spectacular. Electric stuff; he hadn't totally harnessed it in Baltimore, so he was a little wild and inconsistent, and then he had a Lost Weekend that lasted a few years when alcoholism overwhelmed him, plus the typical cornucopia of arm ailments et cetera that almost always bedevil pitchers to some extent.

      Martinez dried out, God bless him, and he landed in Montreal with low expectations and zero attention; he then did the best work of his career. Later, his pitches lost some snap as he got deep into his thirties, but he stayed effective with guile for quite some time; he was one of the better pitchers on the early Cleveland teams full of mashers in the 1990s. Hung on a little too long seeking Juan Marichal's wins mark for Latinos; passed him by one or two and retired. (Bartolo Colon passed Martinez a few years back.)

      I'll be briefer on the other guys.

      Darrell Evans was usually more steady than spectacular, as is often true of position players who draw a lot of their value from bases on balls. He had the two 40 home run seasons over a decade apart, but he was more generally a guy that gave you pretty good defense with 20ish home runs, a surfeit of fly ball outs, (he hit everything in the air), and a slew of walks that compensated for a middling BA. A TTO guy with a nice 3b glove (in his twenties, anyway) that could cover several positions passably.

      The most famous thing about Dewey Evans was his arm. Probably 90% of Clemente's at his peak. He was overshadowed big-time on the 1970s Red Sox by Yaz, Lynn, Rice, Fisk, Scott, Tiant, Lee, Rooster - jeez, those teams were loaded. But he was very valuable to those teams because he could cover Fenway's vast right field - his range was great too; he could have easily played center, but Fenway's right field was almost as big and Dewey's arm belonged in right. He also didn't hit much in the 70's but he didn't need to on those teams, plus he walked a lot which was kind of hidden value in those days.

      Most of the stars mentioned above on the 70s Sox went elsewhere, faded, and/or retired when the 80s came; meanwhile, Evans enteting his thirties improved his OBP and developed good home run power. (His defense started to fade, though; his last couple GG's were reputational.) Suddenly he was a centerpiece of Boston's offense, usually batting between Boggs and Rice, and had two or three seasons where he was a legit MVP candidate.

      I don't remember Blue on the A's, just the Giants, but he was pretty good for them. A lefty with a good heater and some nasty breaking stuff. 1971 was definitely a career year and probably a little fluky; for the Giants, he was a definite #1 pitcher but not really a superstar outside of the fading corona of the A's years. Crashed quickly in the 1980s amid big nose candy troubles...hard to say whether it was mostly because of that or just typical age-related decline; surely some of both.

      This is all off memory, didn't even peek at B-R; if I got anything wrong, mea culpa.
      Very awesome, I obviously read about these guys and saw highlights but wanted to hear from people who saw them and can speak to how they were perceived as their careers progressed. If Blue wouldn’t have been down in ‘72 and ‘74 he’d probably be in my PHoF and would have a much better, possibly Hunter-esque, reputation and possibly a real NBBHoFnM chance.

      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

      Comment


      • Cougar wrote pretty much everything I would have, just better and with more style.

        I think Martinez has a great narrative, with 250ish wins even with the fallow period mid career.

        Vida's Athletics prime is a touch before my time as an active, attentive fan. He was still highly effective in his tenure with the Giants. He's a borderline case but that sort of longevity, the tremendous peak of '71 and (probably most of all) the central place in the juggernaut rotation of a perennial championship level squad from '71-'76 or so, pull him over the line, for me. I can also attest that though none of us knew the term Q Rating when I was in elementary school then, he had quite a rep as a style icon in the game.

        Dewey Evans' case is a lot like Andruw Jones' (GG level defense combined with terrific power) and Darrel's is similarly based on the idea (not shared by everyone here, to be sure) that 400 HR in his day was quite impressive, more so than in the later clownball era.
        3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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        • OK, just so everyone knows, I do plan to update this soon. Today I brought the spreadsheet up to date, and next I'll be reviewing the thread starting from when I last recorded changes.
          *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nerdlinger View Post
            OK, just so everyone knows, I do plan to update this soon. Today I brought the spreadsheet up to date, and next I'll be reviewing the thread starting from when I last recorded changes.
            You're a gentleman and a scholar. And your mother loves you.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
              You're a gentleman and a scholar. And your mother loves you.
              Thanks! This weekend I plowed through most of the updates people have made, though I'm currently bogged down in Stieb's last big expansion. I've contemplated adding a cap on the size of participants' halls... A thousand members wouldn't be too unreasonable an upper limit, would it? (JK, but sort of not )
              *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

              Comment


              • I've said it before and I love them both, but Stieb makes Cougar look like a "small hall" guy. Here's a thought - how many of us are comfortable saying that our PHOF is the top X players of all-time? (Where X is the size of your PHOF?) I know that I, personally, think of the two as synonymous, but they aren't necessarily the same thing.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • One thing I was actually considering is to stop tracking contributors, but I don't know how well that would go over. I didn't even originally track them when the project started, and when I allowed people to add them, I didn't anticipate having to vet lists of hundreds and hundreds of contributors, some very obscure. No offense to the big hall folks, of course!

                  Also, Stieb, I can't find any sportswriter named George Tildden (or Tilden), so I can't count him.
                  Last edited by Nerdlinger; 02-21-2022, 07:28 PM.
                  *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

                  Comment


                  • OK, everything is updated now. Joining (or rejoining) the HOF here are Pete Hill, David Ortiz, Alex Rodriguez, and Gary Sheffield. As for the Hall of Honor, Billy Southworth joined while Pat Gillick, William Hulbert, Sol White, and J.L. Wilkinson fell out.
                    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

                    Comment


                    • Add
                      Billy Beane (futures)
                      Buster Posey (futures)
                      Thurman Munson

                      Remove
                      Mark Buehrle
                      Eric Gagne
                      Last edited by pedrosrotatorcuff; 06-21-2022, 09:21 PM.
                      They don’t think it be like it is, but it do.

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