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The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 2, The Inner Circle

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  • The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 2, The Inner Circle

    Welcome to the second election for the Seven Circles of Fame. See the original thread for a full explanation of the project and Level 1 results.

    Here are the 15 players we named as The Immortals, the best players in the Hall of Fame:

    Top 25%
    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Ty Cobb
    3) Honus Wagner
    4) Willie Mays
    Mid-level
    5) Ted Williams
    6) Walter Johnson
    7) Stan Musial
    8) Hank Aaron
    9) Mickey Mantle
    10) Lou Gehrig
    11) Tris Speaker
    Lower 25%
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Cy Young
    14) Oscar Charleston
    15) Eddie Collins

    Now in this 2nd election we will determine Level 2, The Inner Circle, identifying the next 24 players currently enshrined in Cooperstown’s Hall. So don’t give us Bonds or Maddux or ARod or Joe Jackson. However, you should consider Black ball players like J. Gibson, Paige and Lloyd. Also give consideration to 19th century stars like Anson, Brouthers, Nichols, etc.

    Since we are only ranking players in this exercise, do not give any extra credit (or discredit) if a guy also was a manager, pioneer, or whatever. Do not give any credit for being famous or colorful. Rank players only on their contributions to their teams’ quest for wins, things that have an effect on the team's fortunes in the win-loss column. This includes considering a guy’s leadership and effect on his teammates (for good or bad). Postseason play should also be given some consideration, though this should be minor, given players’ unequal opportunities for such credit. Give credit for missed playing time due to wars, strikes or short schedules. Minor league play may be considered. Players should not be penalized for PED use; if they were good enough for the HOF, consider them as having passed that test.

    I would ask you to rank them in order (1 to 24). If that’s too cumbersome at least break them up into three groups, to show the top 25% (6 players), and the bottom 25% (6 players) along with the middle 12 players.

    I always find it helpful to reference previous projects done here in the HOF forum. One I find very useful is The Collaboration Game v2.0. The History forum has also done many ranking projects that are worth reviewing.

    Here is my list:

    1) Josh Gibson
    2) Lefty Grove
    3) Mike Schmidt
    4) Joe Morgan
    5) Mel Ott
    6) Nap Lajoie
    7) Pete Alexander
    8) Frank Robinson
    9) Joe DiMaggio
    10) Pop Lloyd
    11) Johnny Bench
    12) Jimmie Foxx
    13) Ricky Henderson
    14) Cap Anson
    15) Eddie Mathews
    16) Satchel Paige
    17) Tom Seaver
    18) Warren Spahn
    19) Cal Ripken
    20) Yogi Berra
    21) Jackie Robinson
    22) George Brett
    23) Christy Mathewson
    24) Dan Brouthers

    Just missed: Arky Vaughan, Turkey Stearnes, Ed Delahanty, Bob Feller, Charlie Gehringer, Kid Nichols
    Coming up: Steve Carlton, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Smokey Joe Williams, Wade Boggs, Bob Gibson

    You are free to reconsider your ballot at any time until the vote is tallied. If you do, make a post here that you have made a change.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1. Napoleon Lajoie
    2. Jimmie Foxx
    3. Frank Robinson
    4. Mel Ott
    5. Mike Schmidt
    6. Pete Alexander
    7. Christy Mathewson
    8. Cap Anson
    9. Dan Brouthers
    10. Joe DiMaggio
    11. Lefty Grove
    12. Warren Spahn
    13. Ed Delahanty
    14. Charlie Gehringer
    15. Sam Crawford
    16. Tom Seaver
    17. Josh Gibson
    18. Wade Boggs
    19. Eddie Mathews
    20. George Brett
    21. Kid Nichols
    22. Paul Waner
    23. Johnny Mize
    24. Tony Gwynn

    Comment


    • #3
      1) Josh Gibson
      2) Mike Schmidt
      3) Lefty Grove
      4) Grover Cleveland Alexander
      5) Joe Morgan
      6) Mel Ott
      7) Nap Lajoie
      8) Frank Robinson
      9) Joe DiMaggio
      10) Johnny Bench
      11) Pop Lloyd
      12) Tom Seaver
      13) Jimmie Foxx
      14) Satchel Paige
      15) Warren Spahn
      16) Cal Ripken
      17) Turkey Stearnes
      18) Eddie Mathews
      19) Ricky Henderson
      20) Ed Delahanty
      21) Yogi Berra
      22) Johnny Mize
      23) George Brett
      24) Christy Mathewson
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Satchel Paige
        2. Joe DiMaggio
        3. Josh Gibson
        4. Joe Morgan
        5. Lefty Grove
        6. Mike Schmidt
        7. Jimmie Foxx
        8. Frank Robinson
        9. Napoeon Lajoie
        10. Pete Alexander
        11. Mel Ott
        12. Christy Mathewson
        13. Eddie Matthews
        14. Tom Seaver
        15. Yogi Berra
        16. Warren Spahn
        17. Rickey Henderson
        18. George Brett
        19. Johnny Bench
        20. Pop Lloyd
        21. Kid Nichols
        22. Dan Brouthers
        23. Al Kaline
        24. Cap Anson

        Delahanty, Cochrane, Crawford, Clarkson, Reggie are next Mize, Boggs, Keefe, Stearnes and Gehringer after that (or something like that)

        Comment


        • #5
          In a real HOF I don't like the idea of segregating the inductees by "class". However, I'm okay for the sake of this exercise.

          1. Lefty Grove
          2. Mike Schmidt
          3. Grover Cleveland Alexander
          4. Joe DiMaggio
          5. Frank Robinson
          6. Joe Morgan
          7. Mel Ott
          8. Satchel Paige
          9. Josh Gibson
          10. Jimmie Foxx
          11. Tom Seaver
          12. Rickey Henderson
          13. Christy Mathewson
          14. Eddie Mathews
          15. Nap Lajoie
          16. Johnny Bench
          17. Yogi Berra
          18. Warren Spahn
          19. George Brett
          20. Cal Ripken Jr.
          21. Jackie Robinson
          22. Pop Lloyd
          23. Johnny Mize
          24. Dan Brouthers

          Comment


          • #6
            So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course.

            Most Batting Wins, 500 G at 2B, age 29-33
            Code:
            Rk	Player	         BtWins	OPS+	 RC	 PA	From	 To
            1	Rogers Hornsby	30.08	177	769	3224	1925	1929
            2	Joe Morgan	25.11	160	663	3222	1973	1977
            3	Nap Lajoie	19.58	160	412	2745	1904	1908
            4	Jackie Robinson	18.21	143	563	3241	1948	1952
            5	Charlie Gehringer	15.78	135	641	3545	1932	1936
            6	Craig Biggio	15.53	131	638	3627	1995	1999
            7	Eddie Collins	13.76	134	425	3121	1916	1920
            8	Ryne Sandberg	13.72	135	532	3221	1989	1993
            EDIT: I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.
            Last edited by Freakshow; 05-06-2010, 11:04 AM.
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #7
              1. Alexander
              2. Grove
              3. Paige
              4. LaJoie
              5. Mathewson
              6. Spahn
              7. Nichols
              8. Schmidt
              9. Ott
              10. F. Robinson
              11. Stearnes
              12. J. Gibson
              13. Anson
              14. Morgan
              15. J. Williams
              16. Seaver
              17. Foxx
              18. Crawford
              19. Mathews
              20. Carlton
              21. Yastrzemski
              22. J. DiMaggio
              23. Gehringer
              24. Brouthers
              Last edited by jalbright; 05-07-2010, 01:40 PM.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                1. Alexander
                2. Grove
                3. Paige
                4. LaJoie
                5. Mathewson
                6. Mantle
                7. Spahn
                8. Gehrig
                9. Nichols
                10. Schmidt
                11. Ott
                12. F. Robinson
                13. Stearnes
                14. J. Gibson
                15. Anson
                16. Morgan
                17. J. Williams
                18. Seaver
                19. Foxx
                20. Crawford
                21. Mathews
                22. Carlton
                23. Yastrzemski
                24. J. DiMaggio
                Mantle is number 9 in the first circle.

                Comment


                • #9
                  So he is. I've edited my post. Thanks.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                    So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course....

                    ....I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.
                    You both have him listed at #21 in this round which is the 36th spot overall. Since this list only helps fill the remainder of the top 39 spots, it's reasonable to conclude that, just like you and Ron, most of us have Robinson closer to the cutoff at the end of this ballot than towards the beginning. In other words (to date), not a single voter believes Jackie Robinson is one of the 35 greatest players in the Hall of Fame. Speaking for myself, Robinson was one of the tiny handful of guys I was considering for the last spot on my ballot this time. I would expect that practically all of us will be including him in the next round. Long story short, it's just the length of this particular ballot that's creating the perception that he's not well supported. That's my guess anyway.
                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      1. Alexander
                      2. Grove
                      3. Paige
                      4. LaJoie
                      5. Mathewson
                      6. Spahn
                      7. Gehrig
                      8. Nichols
                      9. Schmidt
                      10. Ott
                      11. F. Robinson
                      12. Stearnes
                      13. J. Gibson
                      14. Anson
                      15. Morgan
                      16. J. Williams
                      17. Seaver
                      18. Foxx
                      19. Crawford
                      20. Mathews
                      21. Carlton
                      22. Yastrzemski
                      23. J. DiMaggio
                      24. Gehringer
                      Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1. Grover Cleveland Alexander
                        2. Lefty Grove
                        3. Jimmie Foxx
                        4. Josh Gibson
                        5. Joe Dimaggio
                        6. Mike Schimdt
                        7. Satchel Paige
                        8. Frank Robinson
                        9. Christy Mathewson
                        10. Johnny Bench
                        11. Mel Ott
                        12. Yogi Berra
                        13. Warren Spahn
                        14. Rickey Henderson
                        15. Joe Morgan
                        16. Steve Carlton
                        17. Nap Lajoie
                        18. George Brett
                        19. Tom Seaver
                        20. Carl Yastrzemski
                        21. Wade Boggs
                        22. Sandy Koufax
                        23. Bob Gibson
                        24. Cap Anson
                        "I would walk through hell in a gasoline suit just to play baseball."-Pete Rose

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1. Josh Gibson
                          2. Pete Alexander
                          3. Nap Lajoie
                          4. Mike Schmidt
                          5. Mel Ott
                          6. Joe Morgan
                          7. Lefty Grove
                          8. John Henry Lloyd
                          9. Rickey Henderson
                          10. Warren Spahn
                          11. Satchel Paige
                          12. Frank Robinson
                          13. Smoky Joe Williams
                          14. Cal Ripken Jr.
                          15. Joe DiMaggio
                          16. Turkey Stearnes
                          17. Tom Seaver
                          18. Arky Vaughan
                          19. Christy Mathewson
                          20. Cristobal Torriente
                          21. Bob Feller
                          22. Eddie Mathews
                          23. Jimmie Foxx
                          24. Johnny Bench

                          Mize, Yount, Berra, Carlton and the ABC first basemen are next in line. . . .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                            Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?
                            I'll edit again, removing the Iron Horse. Dan Brouthers will fill the new bottom spot.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1 Satchel Paige
                              2 Joe DiMaggio
                              3 Josh Gibson
                              4 Tom Seaver
                              5 Christy Mathewson
                              6 Grover Alexander
                              7 Warren Spahn
                              8 Nap Lajoie
                              9 Pop LLoyd
                              10 Mel Ott
                              11 Johnny Bench
                              12 Jimmie Foxx
                              13 Ed Delahanty
                              14 Frank Robinson
                              15 Ricky Henderson
                              16 Sandy Koufax
                              17 Kid Nichols
                              18 Cap Anson
                              19 Mike Schmidt
                              20 Yogi Berra
                              21 Mickey Cochrane
                              22 George Brett
                              23 Charlie Gehringer
                              24 Hank Greenberg

                              I gave extra credit for all time great peaks, which is why Koufax and Greenberg placed well. Greenberg was a monster in the 30s. Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.


                              "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

                              Comment

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