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All-Time NON-HOF by position team 3: Oakland Athletics

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  • All-Time NON-HOF by position team 3: Oakland Athletics

    The purpose of this project is to fill out all-time best by position non-HOFers for each of the current 30 MLB teams. Each thread will have a master list of suggested players by position in post two of this thread, but it will by no means be an exhaustive list. I will continue with the project for as long as there is interest. The discussion thread can be found here.

    For a player to be eligible, they must have:

    **Catchers from deadball/platooning era (roughly 1871-1920) must have played a minimum of 40% of the total games played each season for a total of three seasons at catcher (for example, 40 games in a 120 game season at catcher) and had a minimum of 250 PAs per season for a minimum of 750 PAs and 120 games total with the team

    **Catchers from the post-platooning era must have played a minimum of 51% of their team's games as a catcher for a minimum of 3 seasons (for example, 82 of 162 games).

    **Position players must have played a minimum of 3 seasons (300 PA or 100 G minimum per season) with the organization for a minimum of 900 PA and 300 G with the team

    **Starting pitchers should played a minimum of 3 seasons with the organization and have minimum of 100 IPs and 25 GS or 300 IPs or 75 GS for the team

    **Relief pitchers should have a minimum of 40 G for a 3 year period for a minimum of 120 games with the team

    **no banned players

    **no active players or players who have retired in 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010

    **players who played less than 10 seasons are eligible for our purposes, but must have 3000 PA’s, 1000 IPs (for starters), 200 GFs, 150 SV, or 500 G (for relievers)

    **Minimum requirement exceptions can be made if there is a situation where there are no candidates that meet any of the minimums listed above, however, the existing minimums are set very low so this should be a rare circumstance.

    **No one in the HOF as a player or contributor is eligible for this project. If any players received a Frick Award, they are the only exception to this rule.

    **The minimums listed are minimums with that franchise. Not minimums at a given position. I leave it up to each individual to determine which position a multi-position player is best suited for.

    When considering players, we are looking at their entire careers (this includes players who played in the negro leagues and then moved to MLB prior to 1955). Not just their time spent on a given team. We are trying to come up with rosters filled with the best non-HOF candidates by position possible.

    For our purposes, players can be drawn from the entire history of each organization. For example, when we get to the Washington Nationals, any player who played for 4 seasons as a Montreal Expo is eligible; when we get the Atlanta Braves, players who played for the Boston or Milwaukee Braves are eligible, etc… Regarding franchises, The Chicago Cubs and Atlanta Braves' National Asociation era franchises are eligible for this. Outside of them, please refer to bbref's franchise history sections to determine a player's eligibility with a given franchise. Franchises like the 1869-1880 Reds belong to the all-defunct teams roster and not the current Reds franchise.

    Players who played for multiple teams are eligible for this project for as many teams as they played for and reached the above minimums, however, once a player is voted as best at a given position on a given team, they are considered “elected” and are no longer eligible.

    Please note, that there will be no polls attached to this thread. Anyone interested in participating should draw from the master lists and develop a roster that is set up as follows:

    C:
    1B:
    2B:
    SS:
    3B:
    LF:
    CF:
    RF:
    sub1: (*can be a poistion player, utility player or DH)
    sub2: (*can be a position player, utility player or DH)
    LHP:
    SP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    SP: (*can be a lefty of righty
    #4 SP or RP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    sub3: (*can be a pitcher, utility player or position player)

    *If participants want to list executives, managers, or announcers associated with that team, I will count them and list them as part of that particular all-time franchise. This is optional and not a requirement.

    Partial ballots are acceptable and will be counted, but full ballots would be ideal. Anyone who wants to participate is welcome to. However, I reserve the right to not count a ballot cast in bad faith.

    Tallying of ballots:

    Each player receives 1 point at a given position, with the player with the most points winning out at that position. In the event of a tie, both players will be listed. There will not be a tiebreaker, however, both players will be eligible for other teams until one is voted onto another team. If neither player(s) are elected to another team, both will remain listed as a split team. If a player wins election as a sub, they are still eligible to win a position on another team. For example, Rusty Staub will be eligible as a position player, but not as a sub for the other teams he is associated with. When it comes to players who might show up at multiple positions, if they do not win out at that given position, all of their votes will count as sub votes and they can still make the roster as sub1, sub2, or sub3. Priority goes to a specific position if that player receives the most votes at that position, which might happen at LF or C for a player like Brian Downing.

    In the unlikely event that player wins at 2 positions, the position they received more votes at will be the position that are officially listed for. In the event of a tie, the number of games played at that position will be tie breaker 1 and the number of put outs at that position will be tie breaker 2 (in the even more unlikely event that a player played exactly the same number of games at two different positions in their career and won at 2 positions for a given franchise). If a player wins at a position and as a sub, the position takes priority.

    Voting has officially begun and will run approximately 2 weeks from the date stamp of the first post in this thread. Please copy and paste the above ballot when casting a vote. sub 1, sub2 and sub3 are optional additions. If people wish, feel free to designate which players you are voting for you consider HOFers or to have a strong HOF case.

  • #2
    The team we will be looking at this cycle is the Oakland A's. Players from the entire team's franchise history are eligible here:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/
    http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/oak...ry/players.jsp
    http://mlb.mlb.com/oak/history/all_time_leaders.jsp

    We have a lot of strong candidates to consider:

    C: Dave Duncan, Ron Hassey, Frankie Hayes, Mike Heath, Cy Perkins, Buddy Rosar, Wally Schang, Ossee Schreckengost, Hal Smith, Terry Steinbach, Gene Tenace, Mickey Tettleton

    1B: Harry Davis, Ferris Fain, Ken Harrelson, Mark McGwire, Stuffy McInnis, Vic Power, Dick Siebert

    2B: Max Bishop, Mike Gallego, Phil Garner, Dick Green, Jerry Lumpe, Danny Murphy, Pete Suder

    SS: Jack Barry, Mike Bordick, Bert Campaneris, Monte Cross, Joe Demaestri, Chick Galloway, Eddie Joost, Eric McNair, Skeeter Newsome, Walt Weiss

    3B: Sal Bando, Scott Brosius, Ed Charles, Lave Cross, Joe Dugan, Jimmy Dykes, Wayne Gross, Sammy Hale, Pinky Higgins, Carney Lansford, Hank Majeski

    LF: Lou Finney, Bob Johnson, Tony Phillips, Joe Rudi, Topsy Hartsel, Hector Lopez, Tilly Walker, Gus Zernial

    CF: Sam Chapman, Doc Cramer, Mule Haas, Dave Henderson, Stan Javier, Barnie McCocky, Rick Monday, Dwayne Murphy, Rube Oldring, Amos Strunk, Bill Tuttle

    RF: Tony Armas, Jose Canseco, Ben Grieve, Bing Miller, Wally Moses, Socks Seybold, Harry Simpson, Ruben Sierra, Elmer Valo, Whitey Witt

    LHP: Vida Blue, George Brunet, Ken Holtzman, Rick Honeycutt, Alex Kellner, Bobby Shantz, Rube Walberg

    RHP: Joe Bush, Joe Coleman, Jack Coombs, Ron Darling, Chuck Dobson, George Earnshaw, Ned Garver, Dolly Gray, Slim Harriss, Ray Herbert, Rick Langford, Mike Norris, Blue Moon Odom, Jack Quinn, Eddie Rommel, Diego Segui, Bob Shawkey, Dave Stewart, Bob Welch

    RP: Dave Hamilton, Jay Howell, Gene Nelson, Billy Taylor, John Wyatt

    DH: Dave Kingman

    I see strong HOF cases as almost every position, and this list is pretty much inclusive. The only players not on the list are some lesser outfielders, pitchers, and the possible oversight.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 11-05-2010, 07:51 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Links to past threads:

      Discussion Thread
      Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      Houston Astros

      Results by Team:

      Code:
      The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      
      C: Bob Boone
      1B: Wally Joyner
      2B: Bobby Grich
      SS: Jim Fregosi
      3B: Doug DeCinces
      LF: Brian Downing
      CF: Devon White/Fred Lynn
      RF: Tim Salmon
      Sub 1 and 2: Chili Davis/Don Baylor
      P: Chuck Finley (LHP)
      P: Frank Tanana (LHP)
      P: Dean Chance
      P: Andy Messersmith
      P: Mike Witt
      
      Houston Astros
      
      C: Johnny Edwards
      1B: Jeff Bagwell
      2B: Bill Doran
      SS: Dickie Thon
      3B: Doug Rader
      LF: Jose Cruz
      CF: Cesar Cedeno
      RF: Jimmy Wynn
      Sub 1 and 2: Bob Watson/Rusty Staub
      P: Mike Cueller (LHP)
      P: J.R. Richard
      P: Joe Niekro
      P: Larry Dierker
      P: Mike Scott
      RP: Dave Smith
      List of Players elected (alpha by last name):

      Code:
      Bagwell, Jeff (1B-HOU)
      Baylor, Don* (UT-ANA)
      Boone, Bob (C-ANA)
      Cedeno, Cesar (CF-HOU)
      Cueller, Mike (LHP-HOU)
      Chance Dean (P-ANA)
      Cruz, Jose (LF-HOU)
      Davis, Chili* (UT-ANA)
      DeCinces, Doug (3B-ANA)
      Dierker, Larry (P-HOU)
      Doran, Bill (2B-HOU)
      Downing, Brian (LF-ANA)
      Edwards, Johnny (C-HOU)
      Finley, Chuck (LHP-ANA)
      Fregosi, Jim (SS-ANA)
      Grich, Bobby (2B-ANA)
      Joyner, Wally (1B-ANA)
      Lynn, Fred* (CF-ANA)
      Messersmith, Andy (P-ANA)
      Niekro, Joe (P-HOU)
      Rader, Doug (3B-HOU)
      Richard, J.R (P-HOU)
      Salmon, Tim (RF-ANA)
      Scott, Mike (P-HOU)
      Smith, Dave (RP-HOU)
      Staub, Rusty* (UT-HOU)
      Tanana, Frank (LHP-ANA)
      Watson, Bob (UT-HOU)
      White, Devon* (CF-ANA)
      Witt, Mike (P-ANA)
      Wynn, Jimmy (RF-HOU)
      
      *Player is eligible for another team due to the tie rule.
      Last edited by jjpm74; 11-16-2010, 01:59 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        My Ballot:

        C: Wally Schang*
        1B: Mark McGwire*
        2B: Tony Phillips
        SS: Bert Campaneris
        3B: Sal Bando*
        LF: Bob Johnson*
        CF: Sam Chapman
        RF: Socks Seybold
        sub1:Lave Cross*
        sub2: Gene Tenace
        LHP: Vida Blue
        P: Jack Quinn*
        P: Rube Walberg
        P: Eddie Rommel
        sub3: Max Bishop

        *Denotes players either in my personal HOF or high on my list.
        Last edited by jjpm74; 11-06-2010, 08:46 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Let the voting begin. There are a lot of good players to consider which might make for some interesting conversation.

          Comment


          • #6
            C: Gene Tenace
            1B: Mark McGwire
            2B: Danny Murphy
            SS: Bert Campaneris
            3B: Sal Bando
            LF: Bob Johnson
            CF: Rick Monday
            RF: Jose Canseco
            sub1: Dave Kingman
            sub2: Tony Phillips
            LHP: Vida Blue
            SP: Jack Quinn
            SP: Bob Welch
            #4 SP or RP: Eddie Rommel
            sub3: Lave Cross
            Last edited by Sockeye; 11-05-2010, 04:30 PM.
            My dream ballpark dimensions
            LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
            RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
            Location....San Diego

            Comment


            • #7
              Taking for granted that this team is a good place to list Jack Quinn (which his career record by team supports), there seem to me about eight obvious selections. By implication this ranks Bando and Cross at third ahead of Schang or Tenace at catcher, Bishop or Phillips at second, and so on.

              [now complete]
              C: Wally Schang
              1B: Mark McGwire
              2B: Max Bishop
              SS: Bert Campaneris
              3B: Sal Bando
              LF: Bob Johnson
              CF: Dwayne Murphy
              RF: Jose Canseco
              sub1: Lave Cross
              sub2: Danny Murphy
              LHP: Vida Blue
              P: Jack Quinn
              P: Eddie Rommel
              P: Rube Walberg, LHP
              sub3: Topsy Hartsel, outfielder and baserunner

              ...
              I anticipate Tony Phillips and Gene Tenace on the Tigers and Padres ...
              Stuffy McInnis, Amos Strunk, Jimmy Dykes, Eddie Joost, Rick Monday, Carney Lansford, and Terry Steinbach left out.

              Bobo Newsom and Ned Garver should make the Browns.
              Bobby Shantz, Ken Holtzman and Bob Welch will try out for other teams, too.
              Last edited by Paul Wendt; 11-09-2010, 11:17 AM. Reason: complete this

              Comment


              • #8
                C: Schang
                1B: McGwire
                2B: Bishop
                SS: Campaneris
                3B: Bando
                LF: B. Johnson
                CF: Dwayne Murphy
                RF: Jose Canseco
                SP: Eddie Rommel
                LHP: Vida Blue
                SP (and lefty): Bobby Shantz
                SP: Coombs
                SP: Stewart

                The guys in red are the ones I support for the Hall. There's a lot of relatively close calls in the misses, though.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why Max Bishop over Danny Murphy at 2B? For the life of me I'm just not figuring that one out.
                  My dream ballpark dimensions
                  LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                  RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                  Location....San Diego

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Danny Murphy stopped playing second when Eddie Collins arrived--and, by WAR measures, they were darned close over their entire careers. At that point, I take the career 2B.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      Danny Murphy stopped playing second when Eddie Collins arrived--and, by WAR measures, they were darned close over their entire careers. At that point, I take the career 2B.
                      But Danny Murphy played more games at second than anywhere else so he must be considered as a 2B. And as you pointed out if not for HOF 2B Eddie Collins he would have remained at 2B. His career 124 OPS+ shouldn't be ignored. If Danny Murphy is overlooked for the A's than he won't be a part of this project which will be a huge loss IMO
                      My dream ballpark dimensions
                      LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                      RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                      Location....San Diego

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                        But Danny Murphy played more games at second than anywhere else so he must be considered as a 2B. And as you pointed out if not for HOF 2B Eddie Collins he would have remained at 2B. His career 124 OPS+ shouldn't be ignored. If Danny Murphy is overlooked for the A's than he won't be a part of this project which will be a huge loss IMO
                        It's a tough call between the two, but it all boils down to defense and career at the position.

                        For me, this is why I picked Max Bishop over Danny Murphy:

                        Max Bishop games at 2B: 1230
                        Danny Murphy games at 2B: 839

                        Max Bishop DWS: A+
                        Danny Murphy DWS: B-

                        Basically, Max Bishop played about 400 more games at 2B than Danny Murphy and was an A+ fielder whereas Murphy was a B- fielder. That is the difference between the two for me since both players are almost even in WS, WARP, and WAR.

                        Murphy might have been a better hitter but not so much so that it offsets Bishop's defense. I can definitely see why this position is not a gimme and would not be surprised to see both of these players, along with Tony Phillips get their fair share of votes here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For me it comes down to Murphy's 124 OPS+ to Bishop's 102 OPS+ overshadow's Bishop's slight defensive advantage at 2B. The hitting outweighs the defense in this case. The WS, WARP, WAR takes into account defense and Murphy still has the advantage.
                          Last edited by Sockeye; 11-05-2010, 08:00 PM.
                          My dream ballpark dimensions
                          LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                          RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                          Location....San Diego

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                            For me it comes down to Murphy's 124 OPS+ to Bishop's 102 OPS+ overshadow's Bishop's slight defensive advantage at 2B. The hitting outweighs the defense in this case. The WS, WARP, WAR takes into account defense and Murphy still has the advantage.
                            It depends on how important one's defensive ability was during this period at this position. I don't see either candidate clearly prevailing over the other.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              They aren't all that close. A 124 OPS+ from a 2B must not be ignored in any era...Danny Murphy takes 2B for me.
                              My dream ballpark dimensions
                              LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                              RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                              Location....San Diego

                              Comment

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