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All-Time NON-HOF by position team 4: Toronto Blue Jays

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  • All-Time NON-HOF by position team 4: Toronto Blue Jays

    The purpose of this project is to fill out all-time best by position non-HOFers for each of the current 30 MLB teams. Each thread will have a master list of suggested players by position in post two of this thread, but it will by no means be an exhaustive list. I will continue with the project for as long as there is interest. The discussion thread can be found here.

    For a player to be eligible, they must have:

    **Catchers from deadball/platooning era (roughly 1871-1920) must have played a minimum of 40% of the total games played each season for a total of three seasons at catcher (for example, 40 games in a 120 game season at catcher) and had a minimum of 250 PAs per season for a minimum of 750 PAs and 120 games total with the team

    **Catchers from the post-platooning era must have played a minimum of 51% of their team's games as a catcher for a minimum of 3 seasons (for example, 82 of 162 games).

    **Position players must have played a minimum of 3 seasons (300 PA or 100 G minimum per season) with the organization for a minimum of 900 PA and 300 G with the team

    **Starting pitchers should played a minimum of 3 seasons with the organization and have minimum of 100 IPs and 25 GS or 300 IPs or 75 GS for the team

    **Relief pitchers should have a minimum of 40 G for a 3 year period for a minimum of 120 games with the team

    **no banned players

    **no active players or players who have retired in 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010

    **players who played less than 10 seasons are eligible for our purposes, but must have 3000 PA’s, 1000 IPs (for starters), 200 GFs, 150 SV, or 500 G (for relievers)

    **Minimum requirement exceptions can be made if there is a situation where there are no candidates that meet any of the minimums listed above, however, the existing minimums are set very low so this should be a rare circumstance.

    **No one in the HOF as a player or contributor is eligible for this project. If any players received a Frick Award, they are the only exception to this rule.

    **The minimums listed are minimums with that franchise. Not minimums at a given position. I leave it up to each individual to determine which position a multi-position player is best suited for.

    When considering players, we are looking at their entire careers (this includes players who played in the negro leagues and then moved to MLB prior to 1955). Not just their time spent on a given team. We are trying to come up with rosters filled with the best non-HOF candidates by position possible.

    For our purposes, players can be drawn from the entire history of each organization. For example, when we get to the Washington Nationals, any player who played for 4 seasons as a Montreal Expo is eligible; when we get the Atlanta Braves, players who played for the Boston or Milwaukee Braves are eligible, etc… Regarding franchises, The Chicago Cubs and Atlanta Braves' National Asociation era franchises are eligible for this. Outside of them, please refer to bbref's franchise history sections to determine a player's eligibility with a given franchise. Franchises like the 1869-1880 Reds belong to the all-defunct teams roster and not the current Reds franchise.

    Players who played for multiple teams are eligible for this project for as many teams as they played for and reached the above minimums, however, once a player is voted as best at a given position on a given team, they are considered “elected” and are no longer eligible.

    Please note, that there will be no polls attached to this thread. Anyone interested in participating should draw from the master lists and develop a roster that is set up as follows:

    C:
    1B:
    2B:
    SS:
    3B:
    LF:
    CF:
    RF:
    sub1: (*can be a poistion player, utility player or DH)
    sub2: (*can be a position player, utility player or DH)
    LHP:
    SP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    SP: (*can be a lefty of righty
    #4 SP or RP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    sub3: (*can be a pitcher, utility player or position player)

    *If participants want to list executives, managers, or announcers associated with that team, I will count them and list them as part of that particular all-time franchise. This is optional and not a requirement.

    Partial ballots are acceptable and will be counted, but full ballots would be ideal. Anyone who wants to participate is welcome to. However, I reserve the right to not count a ballot cast in bad faith.

    Tallying of ballots:

    Each player receives 1 point at a given position, with the player with the most points winning out at that position. In the event of a tie, both players will be listed. There will not be a tiebreaker, however, both players will be eligible for other teams until one is voted onto another team. If neither player(s) are elected to another team, both will remain listed as a split team. If a player wins election as a sub, they are still eligible to win a position on another team. For example, Rusty Staub will be eligible as a position player, but not as a sub for the other teams he is associated with. When it comes to players who might show up at multiple positions, if they do not win out at that given position, all of their votes will count as sub votes and they can still make the roster as sub1, sub2, or sub3. Priority goes to a specific position if that player receives the most votes at that position, which might happen at LF or C for a player like Brian Downing.

    In the unlikely event that player wins at 2 positions, the position they received more votes at will be the position that are officially listed for. In the event of a tie, the number of games played at that position will be tie breaker 1 and the number of put outs at that position will be tie breaker 2 (in the even more unlikely event that a player played exactly the same number of games at two different positions in their career and won at 2 positions for a given franchise). If a player wins at a position and as a sub, the position takes priority.

    Voting has officially begun and will run approximately 2 weeks from the date stamp of the first post in this thread. Please copy and paste the above ballot when casting a vote. sub 1, sub2 and sub3 are optional additions. If people wish, feel free to designate which players you are voting for you consider HOFers or to have a strong HOF case.

  • #2
    The team we will be looking at this cycle is the Toronto Blue Jays. Players from the entire team's franchise history are eligible here:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/

    Unfortunately, mlb.com's historical sites for the Blue Jays seem to link to the Phillies, so we're forced to rely on bbref.

    C: Pat Borders, Rick Cerone, Darren Fletcher, Buck Martinez, Ernie Whitt
    1B: John Mayberry, Fred McGriff, John Olerud, Willie Upshaw
    2B: Roberto Alomar, Damaso Garcia
    SS: Tony Fernandez, Alex Gonzalez, Alfredo Griffin, Manuel Lee
    3B: Kelly Gruber, Roy Howell, Rance Mullinkis, Ed Sprague
    LF: George Bell, Barry Bonnell
    CF: Lloyd Moseby, Devon White
    RF: Bob Bailor, Jesse Barfield, Joe Carter
    LHP: Jimmy Key, Al Leiter, Tom Underwood
    P: Doyle Alexander, Jim Clancy, Jim Gott, Juan Guzman, Pat Hentgen, Jesse Jefferson, Luis Leal, Dave Stieb, Todd Stottlemyre
    RP: Mark Eichhorn, Tom Henke, Billy Koch, Dan Plesac, Paul Quantrill, Duane Ward
    DH: Cliff Johnson

    This is a pretty exhaustive list, but as always, it's possible I overlooked someone.

    Comment


    • #3
      Links to past threads:

      Discussion Thread
      Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      Houston Astros
      Oakland Athletics

      Results by Team:

      Code:
      The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      
      C: Bob Boone
      1B: Wally Joyner
      2B: Bobby Grich
      SS: Jim Fregosi
      3B: Doug DeCinces
      LF: Brian Downing
      CF: Devon White/Fred Lynn
      RF: Tim Salmon
      Sub 1 and 2: Chili Davis/Don Baylor
      P: Chuck Finley (LHP)
      P: Frank Tanana (LHP)
      P: Dean Chance
      P: Andy Messersmith
      P: Mike Witt
      
      Houston Astros
      
      C: Johnny Edwards
      1B: Jeff Bagwell
      2B: Bill Doran
      SS: Dickie Thon
      3B: Doug Rader
      LF: Jose Cruz
      CF: Cesar Cedeno
      RF: Jimmy Wynn
      Sub 1 and 2: Bob Watson/Rusty Staub
      P: Mike Cueller (LHP)
      P: J.R. Richard
      P: Joe Niekro
      P: Larry Dierker
      P: Mike Scott
      RP: Dave Smith
      
      [b]Oakland Athletics:
      
      C: Wally Schang
      1B: Mark McGwire
      2B: Max Bishop
      SS: Bert Campaneris
      3B: Sal Bando
      LF: Bob Johnson
      CF: Dwayne Murphy
      RF: Jose Canseco
      P: Vida Blue (LHP)
      P: Eddie Rommel
      P: Jack Quinn
      P: Bobby Shantz (LHP)/Dave Stewart
      sub1: Danny Murphy
      sub 2: Lave Cross/Gene Tenace/Tony Phillips
      List of Players elected (alpha by last name):

      Code:
      Bagwell, Jeff (1B-HOU)
      Bando, Sal (3B-OAK)
      Baylor, Don* (UT-ANA)
      Bishop, Max (2B-OAK)
      Blue, Vida (LHP-OAK)
      Boone, Bob (C-ANA)
      Campaneris, Bert (SS-OAK)
      Cedeno, Cesar (CF-HOU)
      Cueller, Mike (LHP-HOU)
      Chance Dean (P-ANA)
      Cross, Lave* (UT-OAK)
      Cruz, Jose (LF-HOU)
      Davis, Chili* (UT-ANA)
      DeCinces, Doug (3B-ANA)
      Dierker, Larry (P-HOU)
      Doran, Bill (2B-HOU)
      Downing, Brian (LF-ANA)
      Edwards, Johnny (C-HOU)
      Finley, Chuck (LHP-ANA)
      Fregosi, Jim (SS-ANA)
      Grich, Bobby (2B-ANA)
      Johnson, Bob (LF-OAK)
      Joyner, Wally (1B-ANA)
      Lynn, Fred* (CF-ANA)
      McGwire, Mark (1B-OAK)
      Messersmith, Andy (P-ANA)
      Murphy, Danny* (UT-OAK)
      Murphy, Dwayne (CF-OAK)
      Niekro, Joe (P-HOU)
      Phillips, Tony* (UT-OAK)
      Quinn, Jack (P-OAK)
      Rader, Doug (3B-HOU)
      Richard, J.R (P-HOU)
      Rommel, Eddie (P-OAK)
      Salmon, Tim (RF-ANA)
      Schang, Wally (C-OAK)
      Scott, Mike (P-HOU)
      Shantz, Bobby* (LHP-OAK)
      Smith, Dave (RP-HOU)
      Staub, Rusty* (UT-HOU)
      Stewart, Dave* (P-OAK)
      Tanana, Frank (LHP-ANA)
      Tenace, Gene* (UT-OAK)
      Watson, Bob (UT-HOU)
      White, Devon* (CF-ANA)
      Witt, Mike (P-ANA)
      Wynn, Jimmy (RF-HOU)
      
      *Player is eligible for another team due to the tie rule.

      Comment


      • #4
        My Ballot:

        C: Rick Cerone
        1B: John Olerud*
        2B: Roberto Alomar*
        SS: Tony Fernandez
        3B: Kelly Gruber
        LF: George Bell
        CF: Devon White
        RF: Joe Carter
        sub1: Fred McGriff
        sub2: Damaso Garcia
        LHP: Jimmy Key
        SP: Dave Steib*
        SP: Doyle Alexander
        RP: Tom Henke
        sub3: Lloyd Moseby

        *Denotes a player in my personal HOF.
        Last edited by jjpm74; 11-16-2010, 02:40 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          This thread is now officially open.

          Please note that Devon White is eligible for a position, but not as a sub per the tie rule.

          Comment


          • #6
            Isn't Joe Carter more of a LF than a RF?

            From b-r.com:

            16 Seasons OF 1730
            14 Seasons LF 774
            11 Seasons RF 625
            9 Seasons CF 433
            11 Seasons 1B 308
            1 Season 2B 1
            1 Season 3B 1
            16 Seasons TOT 2142

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cougar View Post
              Isn't Joe Carter more of a LF than a RF?

              From b-r.com:

              16 Seasons OF 1730
              14 Seasons LF 774
              11 Seasons RF 625
              9 Seasons CF 433
              11 Seasons 1B 308
              1 Season 2B 1
              1 Season 3B 1
              16 Seasons TOT 2142
              It's pretty much an even split between LF and RF for Carter. Especially during his Toronto days.

              Comment


              • #8
                C: Darrin Fletcher
                1B: Fred McGriff *
                2B: Roberto Alomar *
                SS: Tony Fernandez
                3B: Kelly Gruber
                LF: George Bell
                CF: Devon White
                RF: Joe Carter
                sub1: John Olerud
                sub2: Jesse Barfield
                LHP: Jimmy Key
                SP: Dave Stieb
                SP: Juan Guzman **
                RP: Tom Henke
                sub3: Cliff Johnson


                * Hall of Famer in my book.

                ** Forgot about this guy...wow his '91-'92 was amazing. Too bad he was stuck in desolate Toronto where he got almost no recognition.
                The Writer's Journey

                Comment


                • #9
                  C: Ernie Whitt
                  1B: Fred McGriff*
                  2B: Roberto Alomar*
                  SS: Tony Fernandez
                  3B: Kelly Gruber
                  LF: George Bell
                  CF: Devon White
                  RF: Joe Carter
                  sub1: John Olerud*
                  sub2: John Mayberry
                  LHP: Jimmy Key
                  SP: Dave Steib
                  SP: Doyle Alexander
                  SP: Al Leiter
                  sub3: Jesse Barfield

                  * denotes a player in my personal HOF
                  Last edited by Sockeye; 11-16-2010, 04:58 PM.
                  My dream ballpark dimensions
                  LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                  RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                  Location....San Diego

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    C-Ernie Whitt

                    1B-John Olerud

                    2B-Roberto Alomar

                    SS-Tony Fernandez

                    3B-Kelly Gruber

                    LF-George Bell

                    CF-Devon White

                    RF-Jesse Barfield

                    sub1-Fred McGriff

                    sub2-Lloyd Moseby

                    LHP-Jimmy Key

                    SP-Dave Steib

                    SP-Pat Hentgen

                    RP-Tom Henke

                    sub3-Juan Guzman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      C: Whitt
                      1B: McGriff
                      2B:Alomar
                      SS: Fernandez
                      3B:Gruber
                      LF:Bell
                      CF: White
                      RF: Carter
                      sub1: Olerud
                      sub2: Barfield
                      LHP: Key
                      SP: Stieb
                      SP: Hentgen
                      #4 SP or RP: Henke
                      sub3: Alexander

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wow- 3 expansion teams out of the first 4- not as interesting (to me) as the long-term franchises- especially the more recent ones like Toronto. Well, I'll do my best. Some good players to choose from, but a short history means a lot fewer choices and comparisons.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                          Wow- 3 expansion teams out of the first 4- not as interesting (to me) as the long-term franchises- especially the more recent ones like Toronto. Well, I'll do my best. Some good players to choose from, but a short history means a lot fewer choices and comparisons.
                          The next team (The Braves) have 130 years of franchise history to comb through. I'm going alphabetical by the current name of the franchise.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            C: Ernie Whitt
                            1B: Fred McGriff
                            2B: Roberto Alomar
                            SS: Tony Fernandez
                            3B: Rance Mulliniks
                            LF: George Bell
                            CF: Devon White
                            RF: Jesse Barfield
                            sub1: John Olerud
                            sub2: Lloyd Moseby

                            LHP: Jimmy Key
                            SP: Dave Stieb
                            SP: Doyle Alexander
                            #4 SP or RP: Tom Henke
                            sub3: Joe Carter (non-pitcher)
                            Last edited by Paul Wendt; 11-17-2010, 11:16 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Toronto BlueJays

                              C. Ernie Whitt
                              1B. Fred McGriff
                              2B. Roberto Alomar
                              SS. Tony Fernandez
                              3B. Rance Mulliniks--this is a tough call over Gruber but after looking at both careers I d have to narrowly go with Mulliniks.
                              LF. George Bell
                              CF. Devon White
                              RF. Jesse Barfield
                              ________________
                              SUB1-John Olerud
                              SUB2-Lloyd Moseby
                              ________________
                              LHP. Jimmy Key
                              SP. Dave Stieb
                              SP. Pat Hentgen
                              ________________
                              SUB/RP-Tom Henke
                              SUB/Utility-Joe Carter

                              I gotta say im thinking i might even take Doyle Alexander over Hentgen but I dont want every player the same as Paul Wendts team so i gotta stick with Hentgen
                              Last edited by chicagowhitesox1173; 11-17-2010, 12:44 PM.
                              "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                              "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

                              Comment

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