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  • All-Time NON-HOF vy position team 5: Atlanta Braves

    The purpose of this project is to fill out all-time best by position non-HOFers for each of the current 30 MLB teams. Each thread will have a master list of suggested players by position in post two of this thread, but it will by no means be an exhaustive list. I will continue with the project for as long as there is interest. The discussion thread can be found here.

    For a player to be eligible, they must have:

    **Catchers from deadball/platooning era (roughly 1871-1920) must have played a minimum of 40% of the total games played each season for a total of three seasons at catcher (for example, 40 games in a 120 game season at catcher) and had a minimum of 250 PAs per season for a minimum of 750 PAs and 120 games total with the team

    **Catchers from the post-platooning era must have played a minimum of 51% of their team's games as a catcher for a minimum of 3 seasons (for example, 82 of 162 games).

    **Position players must have played a minimum of 3 seasons (300 PA or 100 G minimum per season) with the organization for a minimum of 900 PA and 300 G with the team

    **Starting pitchers should played a minimum of 3 seasons with the organization and have minimum of 100 IPs and 25 GS or 300 IPs or 75 GS for the team

    **Relief pitchers should have a minimum of 40 G for a 3 year period for a minimum of 120 games with the team

    **no banned players

    **no active players or players who have retired in 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010

    **players who played less than 10 seasons are eligible for our purposes, but must have 3000 PA’s, 1000 IPs (for starters), 200 GFs, 150 SV, or 500 G (for relievers)

    **Minimum requirement exceptions can be made if there is a situation where there are no candidates that meet any of the minimums listed above, however, the existing minimums are set very low so this should be a rare circumstance.

    **No one in the HOF as a player or contributor is eligible for this project. If any players received a Frick Award, they are the only exception to this rule.

    **The minimums listed are minimums with that franchise. Not minimums at a given position. I leave it up to each individual to determine which position a multi-position player is best suited for.

    When considering players, we are looking at their entire careers (this includes players who played in the negro leagues and then moved to MLB prior to 1955). Not just their time spent on a given team. We are trying to come up with rosters filled with the best non-HOF candidates by position possible.

    For our purposes, players can be drawn from the entire history of each organization. For example, when we get to the Washington Nationals, any player who played for 4 seasons as a Montreal Expo is eligible; when we get the Atlanta Braves, players who played for the Boston or Milwaukee Braves are eligible, etc… Regarding franchises, The Chicago Cubs and Atlanta Braves' National Asociation era franchises are eligible for this. Outside of them, please refer to bbref's franchise history sections to determine a player's eligibility with a given franchise. Franchises like the 1869-1880 Reds belong to the all-defunct teams roster and not the current Reds franchise.

    Players who played for multiple teams are eligible for this project for as many teams as they played for and reached the above minimums, however, once a player is voted as best at a given position on a given team, they are considered “elected” and are no longer eligible.

    Please note, that there will be no polls attached to this thread. Anyone interested in participating should draw from the master lists and develop a roster that is set up as follows:

    C:
    1B:
    2B:
    SS:
    3B:
    LF:
    CF:
    RF:
    sub1: (*can be a poistion player, utility player or DH)
    sub2: (*can be a position player, utility player or DH)
    LHP:
    SP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    SP: (*can be a lefty of righty
    #4 SP or RP: (*can be a lefty or righty
    sub3: (*can be a pitcher, utility player or position player)

    *If participants want to list executives, managers, or announcers associated with that team, I will count them and list them as part of that particular all-time franchise. This is optional and not a requirement.

    Partial ballots are acceptable and will be counted, but full ballots would be ideal. Anyone who wants to participate is welcome to. However, I reserve the right to not count a ballot cast in bad faith.

    Tallying of ballots:

    Each player receives 1 point at a given position, with the player with the most points winning out at that position. In the event of a tie, both players will be listed. There will not be a tiebreaker, however, both players will be eligible for other teams until one is voted onto another team. If neither player(s) are elected to another team, both will remain listed as a split team. If a player wins election as a sub, they are still eligible to win a position on another team. For example, Rusty Staub will be eligible as a position player, but not as a sub for the other teams he is associated with. When it comes to players who might show up at multiple positions, if they do not win out at that given position, all of their votes will count as sub votes and they can still make the roster as sub1, sub2, or sub3. Priority goes to a specific position if that player receives the most votes at that position, which might happen at LF or C for a player like Brian Downing.

    In the unlikely event that player wins at 2 positions, the position they received more votes at will be the position that are officially listed for. In the event of a tie, the number of games played at that position will be tie breaker 1 and the number of put outs at that position will be tie breaker 2 (in the even more unlikely event that a player played exactly the same number of games at two different positions in their career and won at 2 positions for a given franchise). If a player wins at a position and as a sub, the position takes priority.

    Voting has officially begun and will run approximately 2 weeks from the date stamp of the first post in this thread. Please copy and paste the above ballot when casting a vote. sub 1, sub2 and sub3 are optional additions. If people wish, feel free to designate which players you are voting for you consider HOFers or to have a strong HOF case.

  • #2
    We will be looking at one of the oldest franchises in baseball: The Atlanta Braves. The Braves organization dates all the way back to 1871 in the National Association, and is one of the two oldest franchises in baseball. Here is a pretty exhaustive list of eligible players by position. This list includes NA players Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Deacon White, Harry Schafer, Andy Leonard, and Jack Manning.

    Please refer to the following links when considering players:

    Atlanta Braves All Time Leaders
    Official Website
    MLB Franchise History at BBref
    NA Franchise History at BBref

    Special Allowances:

    ***A special allowance has been made for Andy Leonard who's career adjusted to modern schedules would have translated to over 3000 PAs.
    ***A special allowance was made for Hal Lee who's career fell just 3 PAs shy of 3000 PAs.
    ***A special allowance was made for Sid Bream who only fell 2 PA shy if the minimum.
    ***A Special allowance was made for Danny Neagle who's best year came with the Atlanta Braves. He would be 1/2 a season short of eligibility without this allowance.
    ***A special allowance was made for notable catcher Pat Moran from the platooning era.


    Here are the eligible players by position. As always, it is possible I overlooked someone and many of these players are eligible at other positions as well:

    C: Bruce Benedict, Charlie Bennett, Walker Cooper, Del Crandall, Charlie Ganzel, Hank Gowdy, Shanty Hogan, Javy Lopez, Phil Masi, Cal McVey, Pat Moran, Bill Rariden, Joe Torre, Deacon White

    1B: Joe Adcock, Sid Bream, Chris Chambliss, Elbie Fletcher, Buddy Hassett, Walter Holke, Bob Horner, Brian Jordan, Ed Konetchy, Felix Mantilla, Denis Menke, John Morrill, Gerald Perry, Fred Tenney, Earl Torgenson, Tommy Tucker, Max West

    2B: Ross Barnes, Frank Bolling, Jack Burdock, Glenn Hubbard, Mark Lemke, Bobby Lowe, Felix Millan, Ken Oberkfell, Marty Perez, Joe Quinn, Johnny Rawlings, Connie Ryan, Sibby Sisti, Bill Sweeney, Rabbit Warstler

    SS: Ed Abbaticchio, Rafael Belliard, Jeff Blauser, Al Bridwell, Hod Ford, Sonny Jackson, Johnny Logan, Herman Long, Roy McMillan, Eddie Miller, Rafael Ramirez, Billy Urbanski, Sam Wise

    3B: Tony Boeckel, Clete Boyer, Tony Cuccinello, Bob Elliott, Darrell Evans, Sid Gordon, Buck Jordan, Billy Nash, Danny O'Connell, Terry Pendleton, Jerry Royster, Harry Schafer, Red Smith, Ezra Sutton, Pinky Whitney

    LF: Dusty Baker, Barry Bonnell, Rico Carty, Duff Cooley, Wes Covington, Ron Gant, Ralph Garr, John Hornung, Dion James, Mack Jones, David Justice, Hal Lee, Andy Leonard, Mike Lum, Les Mann, Gary Matthews, Lee Maye, Otis Nixon, Lonnie Smith

    CF: Wally Berger, Ginger Beaumont, Eddie Brown, Bill Bruton, Dick Johnston, Dale Murphy, Ray Powell, Chick Stahl

    RF: Felipe Alou, Jeff Burroughs, Tommy Holmes, Jack Manning, Gene Moore, Andy Pafko, Claudell Washington

    CF/LHP: Johnny Cooney

    LHP: Steve Avery, Ed Brandt, Otto Hess, Charlie Liebrandt, Denny Neagle, Zane Smith, George Stone, Lefty Tyler, Tom Zachary

    P: Jesse Barnes, Red Barrett, Larry Benton, Huck Betts, Vern Bickford, Tommy Bond, Ed Brandt, Buster Brown, Charlie Buffinton, Bob Buhl, Lew Burdette, Ben Cantwell, Tony Cloninger, Gene Conley, Bill Dinneen, Dana Fillingim, Fred Frankhouse, Joe Genewich, Pat Jarvis, Al Javery, Ken Johnson, Johnny Lanning, Danny Lemaster, Ted Lewis, Rick Mahler, Danny MacFayden, Hugh McQuillan, Carl Morton, Art Nehf, Joe Oeschgor, Pascual Perez, Togle Pittinger, Pat Ragan, Dick Rathven, Ron Reed, Dick Rudolph, Johnny Sain, Jack Scott, Socks Selbold, Bob Smith, Harry Staley, Jack Stivetts, Max Surkont, Jim Tobin, Jim Turner, Bill Voiselle, Jim Whitney, Jim Wilson, Irv Young

    RP: Steve Bedrosian, Rick Camp, Gene Garber, Don McMahon, Greg McMichael, Mark Remlinger, Cecil Upshaw, Mark Wohlers
    Last edited by jjpm74; 12-04-2010, 06:51 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Links to past threads:

      Discussion Thread
      Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      Houston Astros
      Oakland Athletics
      Toronto Blue Jays

      Results by Team:

      Code:
      The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
      
      C: Bob Boone
      1B: Wally Joyner
      2B: Bobby Grich
      SS: Jim Fregosi
      3B: Doug DeCinces
      LF: Brian Downing
      CF: Fred Lynn
      RF: Tim Salmon
      Sub 1 and 2: Chili Davis/Don Baylor
      P: Chuck Finley (LHP)
      P: Frank Tanana (LHP)
      P: Dean Chance
      P: Andy Messersmith
      P: Mike Witt
      
      Houston Astros
      
      C: Johnny Edwards
      1B: Jeff Bagwell
      2B: Bill Doran
      SS: Dickie Thon
      3B: Doug Rader
      LF: Jose Cruz
      CF: Cesar Cedeno
      RF: Jimmy Wynn
      Sub 1 and 2: Bob Watson/Rusty Staub
      P: Mike Cueller (LHP)
      P: J.R. Richard
      P: Joe Niekro
      P: Larry Dierker
      P: Mike Scott
      RP: Dave Smith
      
      Oakland Athletics:
      
      C: Wally Schang
      1B: Mark McGwire
      2B: Max Bishop
      SS: Bert Campaneris
      3B: Sal Bando
      LF: Bob Johnson
      CF: Dwayne Murphy
      RF: Jose Canseco
      P: Vida Blue (LHP)
      P: Eddie Rommel
      P: Jack Quinn
      P: Bobby Shantz (LHP)/Dave Stewart
      sub1: Danny Murphy
      sub 2: Lave Cross/Gene Tenace/Tony Phillips
      
      Toronto Blue Jays:
      
      C: Ernie Whitt
      1B: Fred McGriff
      2B: Roberto Alomar
      SS: Tony Fernandez
      3B: Kelly Gruber
      LF: George Bell
      CF: Devon White
      RF: Jesse Barfield
      P: Jimmy Key (LHP)
      P: Dave Stieb
      P: Pat Hentgen
      P: Doyle Alexander
      RP: Tom Henke
      sub1: John Olerud
      sub2: Joe Carter
      List of Players elected (alpha by last name):

      Code:
      Alexander, Doyle (P-TOR)
      Alomar, Roberto (2B-TOR)
      Bagwell, Jeff (1B-HOU)
      Bando, Sal (3B-OAK)
      Barfield, Jesse (RF-TOR)
      Baylor, Don* (UT-ANA)
      Bell, George (LF-TOR)
      Bishop, Max (2B-OAK)
      Blue, Vida (LHP-OAK)
      Boone, Bob (C-ANA)
      Campaneris, Bert (SS-OAK)
      Carter, Joe (UT-TOR)
      Cedeno, Cesar (CF-HOU)
      Cueller, Mike (LHP-HOU)
      Chance Dean (P-ANA)
      Cross, Lave* (UT-OAK)
      Cruz, Jose (LF-HOU)
      Davis, Chili* (UT-ANA)
      DeCinces, Doug (3B-ANA)
      Dierker, Larry (P-HOU)
      Doran, Bill (2B-HOU)
      Downing, Brian (LF-ANA)
      Edwards, Johnny (C-HOU)
      Fernandez, Tony (SS-TOR)
      Finley, Chuck (LHP-ANA)
      Fregosi, Jim (SS-ANA)
      Grich, Bobby (2B-ANA)
      Gruber, Kelly (3B-TOR)
      Henke, Tom (RP-TOR)
      Hentgen, Pat (P-TOR)
      Johnson, Bob (LF-OAK)
      Joyner, Wally (1B-ANA)
      Key, Jimmy (LHP-TOR)
      Lynn, Fred (CF-ANA)
      McGriff, Fred (1B-TOR)
      McGwire, Mark (1B-OAK)
      Messersmith, Andy (P-ANA)
      Murphy, Danny* (UT-OAK)
      Murphy, Dwayne (CF-OAK)
      Niekro, Joe (P-HOU)
      Olerud, John* (UT-TOR)
      Phillips, Tony* (UT-OAK)
      Quinn, Jack (P-OAK)
      Rader, Doug (3B-HOU)
      Richard, J.R (P-HOU)
      Rommel, Eddie (P-OAK)
      Salmon, Tim (RF-ANA)
      Schang, Wally (C-OAK)
      Scott, Mike (P-HOU)
      Shantz, Bobby* (LHP-OAK)
      Smith, Dave (RP-HOU)
      Staub, Rusty* (UT-HOU)
      Steib, Dave (P-TOR)
      Stewart, Dave* (P-OAK)
      Tanana, Frank (LHP-ANA)
      Tenace, Gene* (UT-OAK)
      Watson, Bob (UT-HOU)
      White, Devon (CF-TOR)
      Whitt, Ernie (C-TOR)
      Witt, Mike (P-ANA)
      Wynn, Jimmy (RF-HOU)
      
      *Player is eligible for another team due to the tie rule.

      Comment


      • #4
        My Ballot:

        C: Charlie Bennett
        1B: Cal McVey
        2B: Ross Barnes
        SS: Herman Long
        3B: Ezra Sutton
        LF: Dusty Baker
        CF: Wally Berger
        RF: Dale Murphy
        sub1: Bob Elliott
        sub2: Ed Konetchy
        LHP: Tom Zachary
        SP: Bill Dinneen
        SP: Charlie Buffinton
        SP or RP: Jack Stivetts
        sub3: Chick Stahl
        Last edited by jjpm74; 11-29-2010, 10:08 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          This thread is now officially open.

          Comment


          • #6
            Some struggles I'm having:

            Catcher--This team is stacked at this position. Cal McVey, Deacon White, and Joe Torre all played other positions. White and Torre may be a better fit for another team. There is also Charlie Bennett who I am leaning toward at the moment who may be the strongest candidate of them all. Del Crandall was also solid, but with 4 players eligible who are in my personal hall, he falls short here.

            1B--Darrell Evans and Ed Konetchy are close. I'm leaning towards Darrell Evans.

            3B--Bob Elliott and Erza Sutton are both in my personal hall and very close to each other. This will be a tough call. Sutton's career spanned the earliest professional era of baseball.

            LF--Too many bunched up together to list here. Thankfully, Dale Murphy played CF and RF making the decisions for those two fields easier (Berger in CF, Murphy in RF.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
              Some struggles I'm having:

              Thankfully, Dale Murphy played CF and RF making the decisions for those two fields easier (Berger in CF, Murphy in RF.
              jjpm, it's your thread and you should make the rules. However, I must point out that Murphy played in 1040 games for the Braves in centerfield, and 522 in right field. to me, he clearly was a centerfielder, at least for the Braves. He played mostly RF for the Phils and Rockies, making his career splits a bit closer. But, to me at least, he clearly was a centerfielder for the Braves and I will judge him as such unless you define some minimum position percentage (with a particular team).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                jjpm, it's your thread and you should make the rules. However, I must point out that Murphy played in 1040 games for the Braves in centerfield, and 522 in right field. to me, he clearly was a centerfielder, at least for the Braves. He played mostly RF for the Phils and Rockies, making his career splits a bit closer. But, to me at least, he clearly was a centerfielder for the Braves and I will judge him as such unless you define some minimum position percentage (with a particular team).
                Murphy played both CF and RF and his career totals are pretty close, making him eligible for both CF and RF. I don't understand your question? Put him in the field you are most comfortable with. I see his play in RF as a way to get Berger, who was arguable better than Murphy anyway, in CF and still have Murphy on the team at a position he played for a significant portion of his career.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                  Murphy played both CF and RF and his career totals are pretty close, making him eligible for both CF and RF. I don't understand your question? Put him in the field you are most comfortable with. I see his play in RF as a way to get Berger, who was arguable better than Murphy anyway, in CF and still have Murphy on the team at a position he played for a significant portion of his career.
                  I agree that it's a close call between Murphy and Berger as CFers for the Braves. But, just because I like them both doesn't mean that I'm going to try to find a way to get them both in my lineup if they play the same position- which they did, essentially. Almost all of Murphy's good/outstanding seasons were as a CFer.

                  Now, if you say that a player must play at least 1/3 of his games with a team to be eligible for consideration there, then I could consider him. If you don't do something like that, this type of question could come up a number of times.

                  I remember several all decade teams, where they would do something like put Willie Mays in CF and Mickey Mantle in RF so they could have them both as starters, even though Mantle was exclusively a CFer except for his rookie season. THat seemed to me to be completely contary to fairness. I realize that this example is much more extreme than yours, but hopefully you get the idea.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                    I agree that it's a close call between Murphy and Berger as CFers for the Braves. But, just because I like them both doesn't mean that I'm going to try to find a way to get them both in my lineup if they play the same position- which they did, essentially. Almost all of Murphy's good/outstanding seasons were as a CFer.

                    Now, if you say that a player must play at least 1/3 of his games with a team to be eligible for consideration there, then I could consider him. If you don't do something like that, this type of question could come up a number of times.

                    I remember several all decade teams, where they would do something like put Willie Mays in CF and Mickey Mantle in RF so they could have them both as starters, even though Mantle was exclusively a CFer except for his rookie season. THat seemed to me to be completely contary to fairness. I realize that this example is much more extreme than yours, but hopefully you get the idea.
                    OTOH, if you had both Berger and Murphy (or Mays and Mantle) would you really sit one and allow an inferior player to take a lineup spot rather than move one from center? That's a real world scenario, and every manager worth his salt moves one of the fielders to another defensive position to get him into the lineup. That's why there's no one "right" way to decide the question and therefore the person running the project gets to make the call.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A couple comments --

                      1. Evans played 3b almost exclusively for Atlanta; he filled in 20 games in 1973, and played mostly there in his partial season (coinciding with a dreadful slump which resulted in his being traded away). Otherwise, he was at the hot corner outside of a few stray innings.

                      2. McGriff would be the best candidate at 1b going away. I'm correct that he's ineligible? If so, that's a nasty outcome for the Braves, merely as a result of alphabetical tyranny. It's quite a fall from McGriff to Darrell Evans, or Fred Tenney!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                        A couple comments --

                        1. Evans played 3b almost exclusively for Atlanta; he filled in 20 games in 1973, and played mostly there in his partial season (coinciding with a dreadful slump which resulted in his being traded away). Otherwise, he was at the hot corner outside of a few stray innings.

                        2. McGriff would be the best candidate at 1b going away. I'm correct that he's ineligible? If so, that's a nasty outcome for the Braves, merely as a result of alphabetical tyranny. It's quite a fall from McGriff to Darrell Evans, or Fred Tenney!
                        Good catch on Darrell Evans. I made the correction on the master list of eligible players and slotted Ed Konetchy in at first base on my ballot.

                        You are correct that Fred McGriff is not eligible here. I was hoping John Olerud would win out as the first baseman for the Blue Jays, but that didn't happen.

                        Since there seems to be a need to set a minimum requirement for a given position, I will set the minimum at the smaller of 20% or 150 games played at a given position. I am going with an either/or scenario, because for some players, 20% would translate to over 400 games at a given position on a given franchise in some cases.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          C: Torre
                          1B: Adcock
                          2B: Barnes
                          SS: Long
                          3B: Elliott
                          LF: Carty
                          CF: Berger
                          RF: Murphy
                          sub1: Sutton
                          sub2: White
                          LHP: Leibrandt
                          SP: Bond
                          SP: Buffinton
                          #4 SP or RP: Nehf
                          sub3: Bennett

                          feast or famine: C, 3B, utility stacked pitchers after Bond and Buffinton sort of it was not so easy. As far as the stacked positions I have here and elsewhere, for the most part, just picked the better guys and let the chips fall where they may. I just think I might outsmart myself by trying to gerrymander too much and someone will sit on the sidelines b/c his other teams may have better candidates when there wa sa team I woudl have put him in but didn't.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            C: Deacon White
                            1B: Cal McVey
                            2B: Ross Barnes
                            SS: Herman Long
                            3B: Darrell Evans
                            LF: Wally Berger
                            CF: Dale Murphy
                            RF: Tommy Holmes
                            sub1: Rico Carty
                            sub2: Joe Torre
                            LHP: The Mad Hungarian Al Hrabosky
                            SP: Tommy Bond
                            SP: Charlie Buffinton
                            SP or RP: Gene Garber
                            sub3: Johnny Sain

                            I put Berger in LF because I wanted Holmes in the lineup and he was a RFer. If it's going to screw up the count, put Wally in CF, Murph in RF, and either shift Holmes to LF or swap him with Carty. Either way, it's kind of nice to have two CFers in one OF...a good problem to have.

                            OF was a bear...the strongest two were obvious, and then there was the third spot which could go to Carty, Holmes, Ron Gant, Lonnie Smith, Ralph Garr, Jeff Burroughs, Andy Pafko,...

                            We may be at the point where we need to rethink the one-LHP minimum rule. Requiring a reliever might make quite a bit more sense. Maybe we're locked in now that this thing is underway, but there's still, what, 25 teams to go?
                            Last edited by Cougar; 11-29-2010, 08:00 PM. Reason: Added comments.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                              LF: Wally Berger
                              As far as I know, Wally Berger never played LF in his career. He was primarily a CF with a handful of games in RF. Murphy on the other hand is eligible at CF, RF or 1B.
                              Last edited by jjpm74; 11-29-2010, 10:05 AM.

                              Comment

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