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Team Halls of Fame general discussion thread

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  • [QUOTE=jalbright;1973875]Here's a case by jjpm to add William Shea as a contributor to the Mets:

    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    From what I know of the Mets, it was William Shea and not Joan Payson who was the catalyst for getting a new team in NY. He was the one who proposed and formed the Continental League in the hopes of bringing a second team back to NY:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_League

    I will guarantee this will be presented.
    I would say if you had to pick one and only one pick Shea but if you are a broad based HOF person for these then there should be room for Joan Payson as well.

    Comment


    • We've now finished the third round, and we'll start the fourth shortly. I expect the round to last six weeks from now, with one pair of teams going each week, with each election lasting for two weeks. The pairings will be:

      Yankees and Mets
      Braves and A's
      Red Sox and Tigers
      Dodgers and White Sox
      Pirates and Reds

      The Yankees are the only franchise which still has a contributor election.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • Updated the cumulative list. Bunning was added to the list of players elected to multiple Halls.
        *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

        Comment


        • After we finish the second chance election, I think I'll do a round which involves only candidates who were active in the game from 2010 onward.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
            These are all excellent candidates who are glaring oversights. I plan on making a case for Johnny Kling who I also see as a glaring omission for the Chicago Cubs when I have the time. They were the one team in this project who definitely got short changed.
            I have at least the start of the case for Kling, I think:
            He was the best catcher in WAR in the majors 1902 and 1903, the second best (to Bresnahan each time) in 1906, 1907, and 1908, and 4th best (but 3rd in the NL) in 1910. The Cubs were in probably their best period from 1906-1910, and this guy was a big part of it.

            jjpm74 adds this for him:
            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
            I'm surprised that people are not voting for Johnny Kling at this point:

            http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...lingjo01.shtml

            Kling was one of the cornerstones of 4 pennants in the most dominant era in the team's long history
            Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012, 08:57 AM.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • Here's a case jjpm74 made for Harry Wright as a contributor for the Braves:

              A lot of this organization's early success is due to Harry Wright. More here.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • Here's a case made by dgarza and BigRon for Del Crandall of the Braves:

                Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                I'll post tomorrow. I'm amazed and dismayed that Del Crandall has only 3 of 7 votes so far. Crandall was an outstanding defensive catcher for many years, and by standards of the time, a decent hitter for a catcher. He was an important part of the strong Braves teams of the 50s through early 60s. He'll get my vote, and should have more than he has garnered, in my opinion.
                For me, Del Crandall was my #1 choice this round. He may not have played the most games or have the highest WAR or be the "best" statistical eligible Braves candidate available, but he is pretty high on the list.
                And then add to that 4 Gold Gloves and 11 All Star Games (for 8 seasons)[8 as a starter]. He led league in catching assists 6 times.
                And he's a member of the real Braves HOF (he's 1 of just 15 player inductees).
                Lost 2 years to Korean War.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • Here's a case made for Bud Selig as a contributor of the Brewers:

                  Originally posted by The Dude View Post
                  I'd like to point out Bud Selig's name for contributor. You'll find a strong disdain for Selig here but no one can deny the gratitude people have for him bringing a team to Milwaukee.
                  Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012, 11:36 AM.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • Here's a case for Jesse Haines with the Cardinals, made by DoubleX:

                    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                    Jesse Haines [is] second in both IP and wins with the Cardinals, and his 109 ERA+ should be decent enough to merit induction here.
                    He later added this:
                    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                    It really seems that Jesse Haines is suffering from the stigma of being a poor Cooperstown selection. He was a staple of the Cardinals rotation for 15 years, as he is one of only two pitchers with the Cardinals with 3,000+ IP and one of only with 200+ wins. He also pitched well in four World Series, posting a 1.67 ERA in 32 IP. His 109 ERA+ isn't great, but in the context of just this franchise but should be good enough given his longevity with the franchise, and I don't think any pitcher contributed more to the Cardinals save Bob Gibson.
                    Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012, 11:35 AM.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • DoubleX gave us this case on behalf of Jimmy Ryan of the Cubs:
                      Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                      I suspect Jimmy Ryan may be a forgotten man here, but his 15 seasons in centerfield for the Cubs with a 125 OPS+ merits a good look, IMO.
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • Paul Wendt gave us this for Frank Selee as a contributor with the Cubs:

                        Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                        Certainly I will vote for Frank Selee if i cast a ballot. Who better? He was the architect of a great team, one of "only" two great teams that played more than a season or two for this club. I know that by reputation but also by inference from reading contemporary news. Among others the team had lost Clark Griffith to the AL, the only plausible captain/manager after Anson. None of the remaining players were important recruiters or scouts. Both Tom Loftus (before the 1901 losses) and Frank Selee were hired as professional managers to rebuild the team.
                        Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012, 11:35 AM.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • DoubleX made this argument for Herb Score as a contributor for the Indians:
                          Noteworthy for contributions as a player and long-time broadcaster
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • Domenic made this argument for Dave Niehaus as a contributor for the Mariners:

                            Niehaus was the voice of the Mariners for 34 years, coining the nicknames A-Rod and 'The Kid' while winning a Frick Award along the way.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • Here's both sides of the issue on Gary Carter with the Mets, DoubleX taking the "no" side:
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                              It's hard to ignore how amazing Carter was while on the Mets. He was one of the main reasons they were as good as they were from 1985-1988.
                              I was most torn on Carter. When I first got into baseball as a young kid, the Mets were for a few years my favorite team. It was during that '85-'88 period, perhaps the one and only time the Mets were able to eclipse the Yankees in popularity in New York. So given their success all the hype around them, it was hard for a young kid such as myself to ignore. Carter was actually one of my favorite, if not my favorite player on the team at that time. He team with Keith Hernandez to provide a necessary and valuable veteran presence which pushed the team over the top.

                              That all being said, I look at the numbers now, and Carter's overall career with the Mets wasn't that impressive. Less than 2500 plate appearances is a pretty small sample size, and the 104 OPS+ isn't that great, especially considering the small sample size.

                              All told, I'm still torn. He did have two big years with the team and was subjectively, a very important piece of the puzzle, but the whole of his career with the team isn't that impressive.
                              jjpm74 replied with:
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                              One intangible about Carter is that beyond the offensive numbers, he was also a smart catcher who, along with Mel Stottlemyre, might deserve some credit for how well that pitching staff was. Gooden, Fernandez and Darling were all solid pitchers with or without a good catcher, but the Mets also saw pitchers like Aguilera and Leach enjoy a great deal of success during that period.
                              I added this thought:
                              I know what standards I'm looking for, but I don't think it's outlandish for voters to expect several all-star type years or a MVP/Cy Young type year (especially the Cleon Jones model--in a surprise World Series year). Carter was a four time all-star with the Mets. Now, that arguably has something to do with 1) his reputation, and 2) his competition in the NL for a catching slot. Even so, he was a 4 time all-star.
                              Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012, 11:03 AM.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • Here is Brooklyn's case for Ed Kranepool with the Mets, followed by my responses.

                                Originally posted by Brooklyn View Post
                                [H]ere is my plea for Kranepool - I'm surprised he is getting so little support. He was certainly not a superstar, but he was on the Mets every year in the 60's and 70's. I would never vote a player into Cooperstown based solely on longevity, but it is something special for a player to be on one team so long. And with his 97 career OPS+, he wasn't as bad as he is sometimes remembered (granted, you want more from your IB/OF, but this isn't just about stats). Due to my age i didn't really start following baseball until the late 70's, but I can't think of the first two decades of the Mets without including Kranepool. Through 5the Mets 50 years of existence, he is still their all time leader in hits, games played and at-bats, second in total bases and doubles, and top 10 in runs, triples, RBIs and homeruns. While that might be more indicitive of the anemic Mets offense over the years, someone that high up on all their leaderboards deserves to be in the team hall of fame.
                                Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                                I know what standards I'm looking for, but I don't think it's outlandish for voters to expect several all-star type years or a MVP/Cy Young type year (especially the Cleon Jones model--in a surprise World Series year). Kranepool, was only a one time all-star in 1965--probably the Met representative in a day when every team had at least one all-star. If you look at Kranepool's WAR, he never had a season as good as 2 WAR--and five is all-star level. In fact, his career WAR is 4.4. At that level of play, I don't care how long Kranepool was a Met. I'm not a Met fan, and I'm not going to get a largely emotionally based case--and one of the prices this project exacts is that those types of cases for players are exceedingly tough to succeed with.
                                After a little discussion with jjpm74, I posted this:
                                Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                                I didn't have time to respond about Kranepool earlier. If we look at the three elements of WAR I use, he can't even come close to Franco:
                                career: 4.4
                                top 3: 5.1
                                top 5 consecutive: 4.7

                                That's not impressive for an everyday player, to say the least. If we dig into the WAR at bb-ref, we find that he had only four seasons where his total runs above replacement were less than the run differential between average and replacement for a player with as much playing time as he had:
                                1962 when both figures were 0 ( 6 PA);
                                1971 when he had three more runs above replacement than average for his playing time;
                                1975 when he had his highest total above replacement than average for his playing time, a whopping four runs; and
                                1976 when he had two more runs above replacement than an average player for his playing time.

                                All other seasons were below average by this measure. In other words, 1) it's being kind to say Kranepool was mediocre, and 2) Kranepool's one notable attribute was his ability to keep a job with the Mets. IMHO, putting Kranepool into the team HOF turns what should be an honor into a gold watch earned solely by a sufficient amount of playing time. I resolutely refuse to go there.
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                                Comment

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