Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 6: The Lower Hall & Level 7: The Outer Hall

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I just did a quick comparison of WAA of Brock vs. the 5 you have him ranked with and he is decidedly above them all. I agree with you that Lou Brock is not the greatest HOF candidate, but I think that maybe you are overcompensating here when there are a dozen other HOF markers that have him well above the bottom 10 in the HOF and even WAA doesn't have him THAT low.

    McCarthy, by comparison places around the roughly top 35% among players of his own generation. That is not above average. That is among the top 1/3 of a much more primitive league that had much less players and teams. All of what McCarthy has going for him are the same anecdotal accolades presented in his SABR bio and 5 years at above replacement value.
    I doubt that's true on both peak (best 3 seasons and best 5 consecutive) and career totals. Also, the system, which is detailed both in my blog and the 2nd and 3rd to last pages in my Musings thread, zeroes out below average seasons.

    All that and McCarthy is less than a point ahead of Brock, and if I was a little more subjective, yes, I'd put Lou ahead by a tad. To me the key is neither one is worthy of the Hall solely for his production as a player.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #17
      1. Chuck Klein
      ---------------
      2. Orlando Cepeda
      3. Hugh Duffy
      ---------------
      4. Jim Rice
      5. Mickey Welch
      6. Rollie Fingers
      7. Don Sutton
      8. Earl Averilll
      ---------------
      9. Nellie Fox
      10. Vic Willis
      11. Jack Beckley
      12. Pie Traynor
      13. Lou Brock
      14. Kiki Cuyler
      15. Ernie Lombardi
      ---------------
      16. Hack Wilson
      17. Burleigh Grimes
      18. Sam Rice
      19. Bruce Sutter
      20. Tony Lazzeri
      21. Tony Perez
      22. Heinie Manush
      23. Lefty Gomez
      24. Addie Joss
      25. Jim Bottomley
      --------------- MY HOF LINE
      26. Luis Aparicio
      27. Eppa Rixey
      28. Joe Sewell
      29. Red Schoendienst
      30. Chief Bender
      31. Pete Hill
      32. Waite Hoyt
      33. George Kell
      34. Ray Dandridge
      ---------------- MY MAYBE HOF LINE
      35. Dave Bancroft
      36. Catfish Hunter
      37. Jack Chesbro
      38. Ross Youngs
      39. Earl Combs
      40. Herb Pennock
      ---------------
      41. Ben Taylor
      42. Phil Rizzuto
      43. Rabbit Maranville
      44. Harry Hooper
      45. Andy Cooper
      46. Freddie Lindstrom
      47. Johnny Evers
      48. Rube Marquard
      49. Roger Bresnahan
      50. Leon Day
      ---------------
      51. Travis Jackson
      52. Joe Tinker
      53. Chick Hafey
      54. Rick Ferrell
      55. Lloyd Waner
      56. Frank Chance
      57. Bill Mazeroski
      58. Ray Schalk
      59. Jesse Haines
      60. Willard Brown
      ---------------
      61. George Kelly
      ---------------
      62. Tommy McCarthy
      63. Judy Johnson
      Last edited by dgarza; 08-16-2011, 07:20 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        This is great, we're up to eight ballots now. Thanks to DoubleX for renewing mine and other's interest in this topic.

        We'll give BigRon (and anyone else) until the end of the week to chime in before I tally this up. Then we'll get to ranking Blyleven and Alomar.
        Last edited by Freakshow; 08-16-2011, 01:18 PM.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #19
          Finally! Very hard to do. I tried to focus most on the top 10 or 15 and the bottom 10 or 15.

          1. Don Sutton
          2. Pie Traynor
          3. Nellie Fox
          4. Orlando Cepeda
          5. Luis Aparicio
          6. Earl Averill
          7. Eppa Rixey
          8. Pete Hill
          9. Sam Rice
          10. Lou Brock
          11. Jake Beckley
          12. Roger Bresnahan
          13. Willard Brown
          14. Phil Rizzuto
          15. Vic Willis
          16. Frank Chance
          17. Joe Sewell
          18. Addy Joss
          19. Kiki Cuyler
          20. Bruce Sutter
          21. Tony Lazzeri
          22. Burleigh Grimes
          23. Mickey Welch
          24. Hugh Duffy
          25. Ray Dandridge
          26. Rabbit Maranville
          27. Ernie Lombardi
          28. Johnny Evers
          29. Red Schoendienst
          30. Waite Hoyt
          31. Hack Wilson
          32. Chuck Klein
          33. Lefty Gomez
          34. Jim Rice
          35. Rollie Fingers
          36. Harry Hooper
          37. Tony Perez
          38. Ben Taylor
          39. Davey Bancroft
          40. Heinie Manush
          41. Jim Bottomley
          41. Earl Combs
          43. Jack Chesbro
          44. Leon Day
          45. Ross Youngs
          46. Jim Hunter
          47. Herb Pennock
          48. Travis Jackson
          49. Joe Tinker
          50. Chief Bender
          51. Chick Hafey
          52. Bill Mazeroski
          53. Freddy Lindstrom
          54. Andy Cooper
          55. George Kell
          56. Rube Marquard
          57. Judy Johnson
          58. Lloyd Waner
          59. Jessie Haines
          60. Rick Ferrell
          61. Ray Schalk
          62. George Kelly
          63. Tommy McCarthy

          Keeping the actual HOF the same size, I definitely see better candidates for at least the bottom 20 spots.

          Lots and lots of differences of opinion in this round. I won't try to justify my choices. I feel pretty good about the top guys, even though there's also lots of disagreement there.

          Comment


          • #20
            Results - Level 6 & Level 7

            Here are the results of the final poll, the 63 hall of famers that we at BBF consider to rank at the bottom of the HOF, the 42 players in the Lower Hall and the 21 players in the Outer Hall.
            Code:
            [B]HOF Level 6 - The Lower Hall[/B]						
            Rank	Top 25%	         Pts	Std Dev	1st	2nd	3rd	top 25%
            170	Don Sutton	1064	 5.8	1	3	0	7
            171	Pete Hill	1051	 9.4	4	0	0	7
            172	Earl Averill	1048	 6.1	0	0	1	6
            173	Nellie Fox	1014	 7.1	0	0	1	6
            174	Joe Sewell	1008	10.0	0	0	0	6
            175	Jake Beckley	1008	10.4	0	0	1	6
            176	Hugh Duffy	1004	 7.0	0	0	1	3
            177	Roger Bresnahan	1002	15.1	1	0	0	6
            178	Eppa Rixey	 996	13.5	0	0	2	6
            179	Vic Willis	 992	 5.8	0	0	0	3
            180	Willard Brown	 983	18.1	1	0	1	5
            	Mid-level						
            181	Phil Rizzuto	 980	13.1	0	1	1	4
            182	Pie Traynor	 980	15.0	1	2	0	3
            183	Kiki Cuyler	 962	 8.5	0	0	0	3
            184	Addie Joss	 943	10.8	0	0	1	2
            185	Frank Chance	 942	14.6	0	1	0	2
            186	Tony Perez	 931	 7.5	0	0	0	1
            187	Sam Rice	 925	11.9	0	0	0	3
            188	Orlando Cepeda	 922	13.5	0	1	0	3
            189	Luis Aparicio	 919	12.1	0	0	0	3
            190	Burleigh Grimes	 911	12.6	0	1	0	1
            191	Mickey Welch	 907	14.9	0	0	0	2
            192	Chuck Klein	 899	12.5	1	0	0	1
            193	Rollie Fingers	 898	11.3	0	0	0	1
            194	Hack Wilson	 897	 9.9	0	0	0	1
            195	Tony Lazzeri	 894	 6.5	0	0	0	0
            196	Lou Brock	 888	14.7	0	0	0	1
            197	Bruce Sutter	 883	15.5	0	0	0	1
            198	Dave Bancroft	 877	10.9	0	0	0	2
            199	Ernie Lombardi	 875	 8.9	0	0	0	0
            200	Lefty Gomez	 875	 9.2	0	0	0	0
            	Lower 25%	 Pts	Std Dev	232nd	231st	230th	outer
            201	Rabit Maranville 871	13.5	0	0	0	2
            202	Johnny Evers	 867	10.5	0	0	0	1
            203	Ben Taylor	 856	16.8	0	1	0	2
            204	Leon Day	 837	12.4	0	0	0	3
            205	Red Schoendienst 825	 9.3	0	0	0	1
            206	Joe Tinker	 825	10.5	0	0	0	2
            207	Jim Rice	 820	10.9	0	0	0	0
            208	Heinie Manush	 807	 7.9	0	0	0	1
            209	Ray Dandridge	 799	 9.6	0	0	0	3
            210	Earle Combs	 791	 8.5	0	0	0	2
            211	Ross Youngs      789	11.3	0	0	0	4
            The column on the right shows how many of our nine voters placed them in the top 11 on their ballot, the top 25%. For the Lower 25% that column shows how many voters placed them in the bottom 21 on their ballot, in the Outer Hall.
            Code:
            [B]HOF Level 7 - Outer Hall[/B]						
            Rank	HOF Level 7	Pts	Std Dev	232nd	231st	230th	outer
            212	Waite Hoyt	780	 6.9	0	0	0	3
            213	Harry Hooper	779	 8.9	0	0	0	4
            214	Chief Bender	770	12.2	0	0	0	5
            215	Travis Jackson	750	12.3	0	0	0	5
            216	Catfish Hunter	741	10.3	0	0	0	6
            217	Herb Pennock	733	 7.8	0	0	0	6
            218	Jim Bottomley	718	 8.7	0	0	0	5
            219	Andy Cooper	710	 4.9	0	0	0	7
            220	George Kell	693	 8.1	0	0	0	6
            221	Chick Hafey	680	 3.3	0	0	0	9
            222	Jack Chesbro	679	 8.4	0	0	0	7
            223	Bill Mazeroski	660	 6.5	1	0	0	7
            224	Ray Schalk	647	 6.1	0	0	2	9
            225	Fred Lindstrom	632	 5.3	0	0	1	9
            226	Judy Johnson	623	 4.9	1	0	0	9
            227	Rick Ferrell	618	 3.1	0	1	0	9
            228	Rube Marquard	598	 4.3	0	3	2	9
            229	Jesse Haines	598	 1.8	0	1	0	9
            230	George Kelly	595	 4.4	0	2	1	9
            231	Lloyd Waner	589	 2.3	1	0	3	9
            232	Tommy McCarthy	573	 3.2	6	1	0	9
            To measure consensus, I calculated the Standard Deviation for each player. A number below 10 shows a higher degree of agreement among the voters. We had a high degree of agreement on most of the players in the Outer Hall; Jesse Haines had the highest consensus, with every voter placing him among the bottom 8 players in the Hall.

            The players with the most disagreement were the following:

            18.1 Willard Brown
            16.8 Ben Taylor
            15.5 Bruce Sutter
            15.1 Roger Bresnahan
            15.0 Pie Traynor
            14.9 Mickey Welch
            14.7 Lou Brock
            14.6 Frank Chance
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #21
              Level 1 – The Immortals
              Top 25%
              1) Babe Ruth
              2) Ty Cobb
              3) Honus Wagner
              4) Willie Mays
              Mid-level
              5) Ted Williams
              6) Walter Johnson
              7) Stan Musial
              8) Hank Aaron
              9) Mickey Mantle
              10) Lou Gehrig
              11) Tris Speaker
              Lower 25%
              12) Rogers Hornsby
              13) Cy Young
              14) Oscar Charleston (NeL)
              15) Eddie Collins
              Level 2 – The Inner Circle
              Top 25%
              16) Pete Alexander
              17) Josh Gibson (NeL)
              18) Mike Schmidt
              19) Lefty Grove
              20) Frank Robinson
              21) Joe DiMaggio
              Mid-level
              22) Nap Lajoie
              23) Mel Ott
              24) Jimmie Foxx
              25) Satchel Paige (NeL)
              26) C. Mathewson
              27) Tom Seaver
              28) Joe Morgan
              29) Warren Spahn
              30) R. Henderson
              31) Eddie Mathews
              32) Johnny Bench
              33) Pop Lloyd (NeL)
              Lower 25%
              34) George Brett
              35) Yogi Berra
              36) Cap Anson
              37) Turkey Stearnes (NeL)
              38) Dan Brouthers
              39) Cal Ripken
              Level 3 - The All-Time Greats
              Top 25%
              40) Kid Nichols
              41) Jackie Robinson
              42) Ed Delahanty
              43) Charlie Gehringer
              44) Arky Vaughan
              45) Steve Carlton
              46) Wade Boggs
              47) Johnny Mize
              48) Bob Feller
              Mid-level
              49) Carl Yastrzemski
              50) Reggie Jackson
              51) Hank Greenberg
              52) Joe Williams (NeL)
              53) Al Kaline
              54) Bob Gibson
              55) Sam Crawford
              56) Carl Hubbell
              57) Paul Waner
              58) Mickey Cochrane
              59) Martin Dihigo (NeL)
              60) Roberto Clemente
              61) Cristo. Torriente (NeL)
              62) Robin Yount
              63) Buck Ewing
              64) Rod Carew
              Lower 25%
              65) Robin Roberts
              66) Roger Connor
              67) Duke Snider
              68) Joe Rogan (NeL)
              69) Tony Gwynn
              70) Buck Leonard (NeL)
              71) Ernie Banks
              72) Eddie Murray
              73) Roy Campanella
              Level 4 – The Upper Hall
              Top 25%
              74) Frank Baker
              75) Frankie Frisch
              76) Al Simmons
              77) Gaylord Perry
              78) Phil Niekro
              79) Harmon Killebrew
              80) Jim O’Rourke
              81) Willie McCovey
              82) Billy Hamilton
              83) Ryne Sandberg
              84) Ed Walsh
              Mid-level
              85) Luke Appling
              86) George Davis
              87) Sandy Koufax
              88) Mule Suttles (NeL)
              89) King Kelly
              90) Bill Dickey
              91) Gary Carter
              92) Juan Marichal
              93) Harry Heilmann
              94) Eddie Plank
              95) Jesse Burkett
              96) Willie Wells (NeL)
              97) Gabby Hartnett
              98) John Clarkson
              99) Joe Cronin
              100) Carlton Fisk
              101) Fergie Jenkins
              102) Paul Molitor
              103) Nolan Ryan
              104) Jud Wilson (NeL)
              105) Mordecai Brown
              Lower 25%
              106) Tim Keefe
              107) Willie Stargell
              108) Billy Williams
              109) Whitey Ford
              110) Jim Palmer
              111) Hoyt Wilhelm
              112) Amos Rusie
              113) Fred Clarke
              114) Dave Winfield
              115) Monte Irvin (NeL)
              116) Pee Wee Reese
              Level 5 – The Middle Hall
              Top 25%
              117) Brooks Robinson
              118) Dazzy Vance
              119) Louis Santop (NeL)
              120) Goose Goslin
              121) Lou Boudreau
              122) Charley Radbourn
              123) Larry Doby
              124) Willie Keeler
              125) Hal Newhouser
              126) Jim Bunning
              127) Enos Slaughter
              128) Joe Medwick
              129) Jimmy Collins
              Mid-level
              130) Zach Wheat
              131) Richie Ashburn
              132) Joe Gordon
              133) Ted Lyons (BBWAA)
              134) Ray Brown (NeL)
              135) Bill Terry (BBWAA)
              136) Don Drysdale (BBWAA)
              137) Rube Waddell
              138) Billy Herman
              139) Goose Gossage (BBWAA)
              140) Ozzie Smith (BBWAA)
              141) Cool Papa Bell (NeL)
              142) Bid McPhee
              143) George Sisler (BBWAA)
              144) Biz Mackey (NeL)
              145) John Ward
              146) Early Wynn (BBWAA)
              147) Elmer Flick
              148) Red Ruffing (BBWAA)
              149) Hughie Jennings
              150) Joe McGinnity
              151) Max Carey
              152) Ralph Kiner (BBWAA)
              153) Frank Grant (NeL)
              154) Willie Foster (NeL)
              155) Sam Thompson
              156) Stan Coveleski
              Lower 25%
              157) Bob Lemon (BBWAA)
              158) Jose Mendez (NeL)
              159) Bobby Doerr
              160) Edd Roush
              161) Bobby Wallace
              162) Kirby Puckett (BBWAA)
              163) Pud Galvin
              164) Joe Kelley
              165) Hilton Smith (NeL)
              166) Red Faber
              167) Dennis Eckersley (BBWAA)
              168) Dizzy Dean (BBWAA)
              169) Andre Dawson (BBWAA)
              Level 6 – The Lower Hall
              Top 25%
              170) Don Sutton (BBWAA)
              171) Pete Hill (NeL)
              172) Earl Averill
              173) Nellie Fox
              174) Joe Sewell
              175) Jake Beckley
              176) Hugh Duffy
              177) Roger Bresnahan
              178) Eppa Rixey
              179) Vic Willis
              180) Willard Brown (NeL)
              Mid-level
              181) Phil Rizzuto
              182) Pie Traynor (BBWAA)
              183) Kiki Cuyler
              184) Addie Joss
              185) Frank Chance
              186) Tony Perez (BBWAA)
              187) Sam Rice
              188) Orlando Cepeda
              189) Luis Aparicio (BBWAA)
              190) Burleigh Grimes
              191) Mickey Welch
              192) Chuck Klein
              193) Rollie Fingers (BBWAA)
              194) Hack Wilson
              195) Tony Lazzeri
              196) Lou Brock (BBWAA)
              197) Bruce Sutter (BBWAA)
              198) Dave Bancroft
              199) Ernie Lombardi
              200) Lefty Gomez
              Lower 25%
              201) Rabbit Maranville (BBWAA)
              202) Johnny Evers
              203) Ben Taylor (NeL)
              204) Leon Day (NeL)
              205) Red Schoendienst
              206) Joe Tinker
              207) Jim Rice (BBWAA)
              208) Heinie Manush
              209) Ray Dandridge (NeL)
              210) Earle Combs
              211) Ross Youngs
              Level 7 – The Outer Hall
              212) Waite Hoyt
              213) Harry Hooper
              214) Chief Bender
              215) Travis Jackson
              216) Catfish Hunter (BBWAA)
              217) Herb Pennock (BBWAA)
              218) Jim Bottomley
              219) Andy Cooper (NeL)
              220) George Kell
              221) Chick Hafey
              222) Jack Chesbro
              223) Bill Mazeroski
              224) Ray Schalk
              225) Fred Lindstrom
              226) Judy Johnson (NeL)
              227) Rick Ferrell
              228) Rube Marquard
              229) Jesse Haines
              230) George Kelly
              231) Lloyd Waner
              232) Tommy McCarthy
              Last edited by Freakshow; 08-25-2011, 08:28 AM.
              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

              Comment


              • #22
                Great work, Dan. This was a really fun- and worthwhile- project. It took a lot of effort, but the results were worth it. I learned some things about a number of players, too.

                Comment


                • #23
                  My List:


                  1 R. Dandrige
                  2 Mickey Welch
                  3 Don Sutton
                  4 Hugh Duffy
                  5 Sam Rice
                  6 Vic Willis
                  7 P. Hill
                  8 Kiki Cuyler
                  9 Jake Beckley
                  10 Luis Aparicio
                  11 Earl Averill
                  12 Heine Manush
                  13 Chuck Klein
                  14 Chief Bender
                  15 Jim Rice
                  16 Orlando Cepeda
                  17 Tony Perez
                  18 Lou Brock
                  19 Nellie Fox
                  20 Joe Sewell
                  21 Earl Combs
                  22 Tony Lazzeri
                  23 Ernie Lombardi
                  24 Burleigh Grimes
                  25 Harry Hooper
                  26 Eppa Rixey
                  27 Catfish Hunter
                  28 Waite Hoyt
                  29 Hack Wilson
                  30 B. Taylor
                  31 Pie Tranyor
                  32 Addie Joss
                  33 Lefty Gomez
                  34 Red Schoendienst
                  35 J. Johnson
                  36 Dave Bancroft
                  37 Jim Bottomley
                  38 Jack Chesbro
                  39 Herb Pennock
                  40 L. Day
                  41 Frank Chance
                  42 Joe Tinker
                  43 Johnny Evers
                  44 Phil Rizzuto
                  45 Travis Jackson
                  46 Ross Youngs
                  47 Roger Bresnahan
                  48 Rick Ferrell
                  49 Rollie Fingers
                  50 George Kell
                  51 Rabbit Maranville
                  52 Chick Hafey
                  53 Lloyd Waner
                  54 A. Cooper
                  55 Rube Marquard
                  56 Jesse Haines
                  57 Bruce Sutter
                  58 Freddie Linstrom
                  59 W. Brown
                  60 Bill Mazeroski
                  61 George Kelly
                  62 Ray Schalk
                  63 Tommy McCarthy
                  "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                  George Brett

                  Comment

                  Ad Widget

                  Collapse
                  Working...
                  X