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  • Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
    This is the first unanimous poll I've seen on BBF.

    I hope that didn't just ruin it.
    Still safe so far....

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    • Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
      This is the first unanimous poll I've seen on BBF.

      I hope that didn't just ruin it.
      Naaaah. Really, with him, what's not to like about his HOF chances? He gets a yes with both types of poll questions:

      Do you think he will be in the HOF?
      Does he deserve to be a HOFer?

      We can think of several candidates who deserve to make it, but won't for whatever reason. But his case gets a yes to both questions (I would think).
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      Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
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      • Originally posted by swingman24 View Post
        Do you think the reason that Griffey or any player from the last 25-30 years (but especialy the 90's) hasn't dominated more compared to his contemporaries is because of all the great hitting talent in today's game? And by dominated I mean someone like a Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, or Mickey Mantle who basically lead the majors or at the very least the AL in many if not almost every important offensive category for not just one or two seasons but many seasons of their career.

        Obviously, I've been around here long enough to hear league quality and competative leagues thrown around but it seems that there might be more to it than just that in a certain sense. For example I have seen players like Griffey, Bagwell, or Sheffield, well, I don't want to say put down because that's a little more harsh than I think is intended by those making comments and comparisons but I will say that some around here justify ranking these players and others lower than say Musial or Mantle because they didn't stand out more in their respective era. In other words they didn't lead their league in multiple categories so they are not as good of a player as others.
        It does cause some interesting stats, as far as Black Ink:

        Charley Jones > Eddie Collins
        Levi Meyerle > Jim Thome
        Harvey Kuenn > Frank Thomas (the recent one)
        Snuffy Stirnweiss > Jeff Bagwell
        Harry Davis > Willie McCovey
        Harry Stovey > both Tris Speaker AND Joe DiMaggio

        <But doesn't the fact that someone like Mantle not having as many great players competing against him enhance his dominance all the more?>

        I'd think you'd mean just the opposite
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        • Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
          I do too. I really like Jose Canseco. He is out there telling the bare-bones truth about everything. If he had some dirt to dish on Griffey you know he wouldn't hold back. I consider his word on this subject to be very, very reliable at this point. All of his claims keep getting proven to be true.
          You like Canseco? I though you hate steroids. He was an avid steroids user, then started ratting people out only because he was black-balled from baseball and wanted to see the other players and baseball come down with him. So not only is he a cheat, he is a weasley, vindictive cheat (not to mention the domestic abuse and other criminal stuff ). Do you think he did this for some altruistic purpose? Not for the money or vindictiveness?

          And I am sure he didn't know the truth about every player in the league. He played with dozens and dozens of users in his career and only mentioned a handful. He singled out the ones he disliked or was jealous of...no proof any player did or did not use . And just because he was right about a few guys does not mean he was always honest or correct. If Jose Canseco becomes a moral authority or credible source of information in this sport or country, Lord help us all now! bottom line - Canseco not mentioning Griffey is no proof he wasn't on steroids, as it wouldn't be for any player.

          Of course there isn't a thread of evidence Griffey was on steroids either, so why does it keep getting brought up?
          Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-09-2010, 08:30 PM.
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          • Hey, it's not easy being Jose Canseco. h
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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            • Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
              You like Canseco? I though you hate steroids. He was an avid steroids user, then started ratting people out only because he was black-balled from baseball and wanted to see the other players and baseball come down with him. So not only is he a cheat, he is a weasley, vindictive cheat (not to mention the domestic abuse and other criminal stuff ). Do you think he did this for some altruistic purpose? Not for the money or vindictiveness?
              First, I would never, ever want Canseco in the Hall of Fame due to the fact that he took steroids.

              And yes I like him for what he is doing now. I am interested in stuff that's true. It doesn't matter much to me what his path was like to get to the point to realize he should be a truth-teller and whistle-blower. What I like so much about him is that he is blowing the roof off the issue, bottom line.

              When people take steroids and hit a lot of home runs (McGwire, Bonds) or strike out a lot of batters (Clemens) it is the same thing as telling bald-faced lies to the fans and treating us like a bunch of morons. I love the fact that Canseco is blowing those guys cover and I don't care how weaselly those guys think he is for doing it. That's because they're the real lying weasels. They deserve to get their cover blown.

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              • Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
                First, I would never, ever want Canseco in the Hall of Fame due to the fact that he took steroids.

                And yes I like him for what he is doing now. I am interested in stuff that's true. It doesn't matter much to me what his path was like to get to the point to realize he should be a truth-teller and whistle-blower. What I like so much about him is that he is blowing the roof off the issue, bottom line.

                When people take steroids and hit a lot of home runs (McGwire, Bonds) or strike out a lot of batters (Clemens) it is the same thing as telling bald-faced lies to the fans and treating us like a bunch of morons. I love the fact that Canseco is blowing those guys cover and I don't care how weaselly those guys think he is for doing it. That's because they're the real lying weasels. They deserve to get their cover blown.
                So you don't care about intentions or motive - only results?

                I have no problems with authorized people who call out others for certain things or hold people accountable - but they sure as heck had better be living a clean life themselves and be doing it for the right reasons. Canseco is no hero for whistle-blowing if he is doing it for himself/selfish reasons. That is very different than saying that I feel sorry for the people he has ratted out. Hypocrisy, slander (in case he is wrong about any of the people he accused) and greed are just as morally wrong as cheating and lying (which Canseco has been proven to do as well).

                Would you advocate somebody stealing from thieves or killing murderers? There are legal and ethical ways of dealing with people who break "laws" - ratting them out in books to make money and damage their reputations is not one of them. I cant believe that your hatred for Bonds, Clemens, etc. is so strong that you will support anybody who opposes them, regardless of how corrupt they are. And don't forget about the illegal drug use and domestic abuse. This is the guy you "like?" I can see agreeing with any specific behavior he does, but when you say "I like him", it indicates that you agree with his value system - much of the same value system you loathe so much in others.
                Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-09-2010, 09:32 PM.
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                • I think Canseco desperately needed money, and knew he had a good story to tell. Whistleblowers are often not the most attractive people, they were down there in the dirt with the people they are blowing the whistle on. Sometimes they do come forward after a cisis of conscience, but we know that's not true in Canseco's case, since he still advocates steroid use.
                  They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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                  • Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post

                    <But doesn't the fact that someone like Mantle not having as many great players competing against him enhance his dominance all the more?>

                    I'd think you'd mean just the opposite

                    Well, yes. I didn't do a very good job of articulating what I was intending to say.

                    You would be correct about Mantle being not as impressive at dominating offensive categories because the overall talent he competed against "appeared" to be much weaker than that of the 1990's, for example. But that really only works if you have someone that dominated in the same way as Mantle during the 90's and I just don't see that.

                    I mean yes, you have Bonds during the early 90's and Thomas at about the same time but none of them lead in so many offensive categories for so many years the way Mantle or Musial and others did. Players like Bonds and Thomas always were in the top 5 or so in most categories for close to a decade or more but not like some of the upper echelon players who have come before like Mantle, Musial, Williams, or Wagner. I just mean to say that it was easier for those players to distinguish themselves and rise above their peers more than Griffey or Bagwell or the other players of the 90's.

                    So I see what you are saying and somewhat agree but what I'm also trying to get across is the fact that someone like Griffey (since this thread is about him and he was the example that was originally used) didn't lead the ML or even the AL in a number of different offensive stats during his prime seasons doesn't necessarily make him any less great because he had greater competition during his time.

                    Do you agree?

                    And again I just want to reiterate that I am in no way saying the Griffey and all players of the 90's are superior to Wagner, Musial, or Mantle.
                    Last edited by swingman24; 01-09-2010, 09:40 PM.
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                    • Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                      So you don't care about intentions or motive - only results?

                      I have no problems with authorized people who call out others for certain things or hold people accountable - but they sure as heck had better be living a clean life themselves and be doing it for the right reasons. Canseco is no hero for whistle-blowing if he is doing it for himself/selfish reasons. That is very different than saying that I feel sorry for the people he has ratted out. Hypocrisy, slander (in case he is wrong about any of the people he accused) and greed are just as morally wrong as cheating and lying (which Canseco has been proven to do as well).

                      Would you advocate somebody stealing from thieves or killing murderers? There are legal and ethical ways of dealing with people who break "laws" - ratting them out in books to make money and damage their reputations is not one of them. I cant believe that your hatred for Bonds, Clemens, etc. is so strong that you will support anybody who opposes them, regardless of how corrupt they are. And don't forget about the illegal drug use and domestic abuse. This is the guy you "like?" I can see agreeing with any specific behavior he does, but when you say "I like him", it indicates that you agree with his value system - much of the same value system you loathe so much in others.
                      Hypocrisy or not- without canseco the whole steroid issue would have never come out. There would be still no drug tests, no caught players and maybe even steroids not be banned by law.

                      Canseco is for sure a huge ******* who wanted to make money out of it as well as sinking other players with him.

                      But like him or not his book did help the whole anti doping policy tremendously.

                      For example that hypocrisy of trying to find a black sheep to blame on(you need a black sheep to justify actions-for example osama bin laden...). Bonds and other guys where demonized and picked apart while other guys where the poor victims.

                      It was the same like with calr lewis in 88. Ben johnson was the baddest man on planet and lewis the betrayed hero. Years later we found out that lewis was juiced too(and the american sports federation knew it).

                      I think truth can be hurting but it's always a good thing when truth comes out. Baseball can no longer blame some black sheeps like our society likes to do as a very convenient way, but it has to face that it's a very commom problem and has to decide how to deal with it.

                      A very important person in this is barry bonds. He is by far the best of the roiders. So his induction or not in the HOF will be very important for the future treatment of cheaters.

                      I don't care how baseball decides. But they have to treat cheters equally. Baseball has to ackknowledge that roids are very common and not only a matter of a few black sheeps. And then it has to make decisisions...
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                      • Originally posted by dominik View Post
                        Hypocrisy or not- without canseco the whole steroid issue would have never come out. There would be still no drug tests, no caught players and maybe even steroids not be banned by law.

                        Canseco is for sure a huge ******* who wanted to make money out of it as well as sinking other players with him.

                        But like him or not his book did help the whole anti doping policy tremendously.

                        For example that hypocrisy of trying to find a black sheep to blame on(you need a black sheep to justify actions-for example osama bin laden...). Bonds and other guys where demonized and picked apart while other guys where the poor victims.

                        It was the same like with calr lewis in 88. Ben johnson was the baddest man on planet and lewis the betrayed hero. Years later we found out that lewis was juiced too(and the american sports federation knew it).

                        I think truth can be hurting but it's always a good thing when truth comes out. Baseball can no longer blame some black sheeps like our society likes to do as a very convenient way, but it has to face that it's a very commom problem and has to decide how to deal with it.

                        A very important person in this is barry bonds. He is by far the best of the roiders. So his induction or not in the HOF will be very important for the future treatment of cheaters.

                        I don't care how baseball decides. But they have to treat cheters equally. Baseball has to ackknowledge that roids are very common and not only a matter of a few black sheeps. And then it has to make decisisions...
                        I never said "truth coming out is a bad thing." All I said is: just because Canseco did something that may be beneficial to sosciety does not make him a hero or a good guy considering, 1. he did it for the wrong reasons, and 2. he has a laundry list of moral depravity so long that Bonds and Canseco may be jealous. You can't loathe Bonds and Clemens for being amoral and claim that you "like" Canseco. When did I say that his book was did not have some positive repercussions?
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                        • Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                          I never said "truth coming out is a bad thing." All I said is: just because Canseco did something that may be beneficial to sosciety does not make him a hero or a good guy considering, 1. he did it for the wrong reasons, and 2. he has a laundry list of moral depravity so long that Bonds and Canseco may be jealous. You can't loathe Bonds and Clemens for being amoral and claim that you "like" Canseco. When did I say that his book was did not have some positive repercussions?
                          How is Canseco jealous of himself? Did you mean "Bonds and Clemens"?
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                          • Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
                            How is Canseco jealous of himself? Did you mean "Bonds and Clemens"?
                            Obviously!
                            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                            • Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
                              I do too. I really like Jose Canseco. He is out there telling the bare-bones truth about everything. If he had some dirt to dish on Griffey you know he wouldn't hold back. I consider his word on this subject to be very, very reliable at this point. All of his claims keep getting proven to be true.
                              I've met a lot of people related to the game and I can honestly say I haven't heard anyone bring up Jr.'s name in the same sentence with steroids. We realize he's been injured a few times, but most of those injuries seem "legit" if you ask me... (breaking his hand in 1989, arm in 1996, etc) It would take a hell of a lot of evidence for me to think otherwise.

                              Back to the thread: He's a first ballot HOF'er, no question about it.
                              WAR? Prove it!

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                              • Originally posted by Zito75 View Post
                                Back to the thread: He's a first ballot HOF'er, no question about it.
                                Here he is just after raising the 12th Man Flag prior to Sunday's Seahawks season finale at Qwest Field.





                                :gt

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