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  • #31
    --I believe the new testing program probably precludes Griffey or anybody else from having a Bonds like late 30s. Even without that, it wouldn't be in the cards for Junior though. He always got by more on raw talent than hard work. Bonds has always had a great work ethic and never went through an inury ravaged half decade.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Appling
      ...most of us remember best how you played in your final seasons.
      Gotta disagree with you here. Do people remember Duke Snider or Willie Mays as a Met? Dale Murphy as a Phillie? Reggie Jackson as an Angel? Tom Seaver as a White Sox? Gaylord Perry as a Mariner? Wade Boggs as a Devil Ray? Do most of us think of Mattingly as the banged-up, powerless old fart circa 1992-95? No. We tend to bring to mind images of these people in their prime. There are a lot more people who think of Roger Maris as a Yankee than who think of him as a Cardinal. The sole exception might be people who, in their youth, only saw the player in his final years. (Lots of "kids" remember Nolan Ryan as just a Texas Ranger, for example.)

      Ballplayers tend to be memorable for their outstanding performances. Outside of guys like Roger Clemens, there aren't too many players on top of their game in their last few seasons.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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      • #33
        If Griffey hadn't gotten injuries, he'd be easily in my top 10 right now, maybe even top 5. I think I read somewhere that he was on pace to break just about every HR record in the book. But since he started getting injured alot, he's now more of a tragic figure. A "What-could have been".


        He's still a first ballot though.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Chancellor
          Gotta disagree with you here. Do people remember Duke Snider or Willie Mays as a Met? Dale Murphy as a Phillie? Reggie Jackson as an Angel? Tom Seaver as a White Sox? Gaylord Perry as a Mariner? Wade Boggs as a Devil Ray? Do most of us think of Mattingly as the banged-up, powerless old fart circa 1992-95? No. We tend to bring to mind images of these people in their prime. There are a lot more people who think of Roger Maris as a Yankee than who think of him as a Cardinal. The sole exception might be people who, in their youth, only saw the player in his final years. (Lots of "kids" remember Nolan Ryan as just a Texas Ranger, for example.)
          Let's see... I think of Mays as a Met, Murphy as a Colorado Rockie, Jackson as an Angel, Seaver as a Red Sox, and Boggs as a Devil Ray. Perry I don't think of one way or the other, and I do try and forget that the Duke played in the Polo Grounds. Mays gets a Met tag because the defining moment of his career was him flopping around on the ground like a dead fish in the 73 Series. I do think of Don Mattingly as the guy with the outta whack back, struggling through the 95 ALDS. And the Babe, of course, is thought of as a 300 lb whale by most everybody... even if they don't picture him in a Braves uniform. I really think you're wrong here.
          Last edited by ElHalo; 05-11-2005, 09:22 AM.
          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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          • #35
            --Or could it be that your thought process is somewhat different than most? Anybody who chooses to remember Mays' sad farewell tour with the Mets rather than his two decades of excellence with the Giants has their priorities badly out of whack.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by leecemark
              --Or could it be that your thought process is somewhat different than most? Anybody who chooses to remember Mays' sad farewell tour with the Mets rather than his two decades of excellence with the Giants has their priorities badly out of whack.
              Mark, think SARCASM
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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              • #37
                --Unfortunately EH has expressed a similar line of thought often enough before that I have to believe he at least partly does think of great stars at their worst.

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                • #38
                  The good that men do is quickly and easily forgotten; the bad lingers on forever. Simple fact of life.
                  "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                  Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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                  • #39
                    Glory is fleeting but Legends live on forever.

                    - Grantland Rice

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                    • #40
                      Slumps come and slumps go, but the curses of Herb Score and Rocky Colavito live on forever :grouchy
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ElHalo
                        Mays gets a Met tag because the defining moment of his career was him flopping around on the ground like a dead fish in the 73 Series.
                        ??

                        I've NEVER heard anyone before claim this. Very narrow and sad perspective if this is the only vison of Mays. Far more remember the glory years and would cite "the Catch" as his defining moment (even if born long after that time)
                        John

                        Stan Musial Pages
                        CultureDose Media Reviews

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ElHalo
                          The good that men do is quickly and easily forgotten; the bad lingers on forever. Simple fact of life.
                          Not always true.

                          In sports fans tend to remember the high spots.


                          Johnny Unitas will always be "Mr High Tops" and a Legend.No one cares he was a Charger QB/QB coach for two seasons.

                          Babe Ruth will always be remembered as "The Bambino" and a Legend.No one cares he was a Boston Brave.

                          Pete Rose will always be "Charlie Hustle" and a Baseball great......He will continue to get standing ovations for what he did on the field until the day he dies...........

                          Also works in Politics -

                          John F Kennedy was a President with terrible foreign policies but is remembered favorable today............


                          People tend to remember the high spots of course that is what is taught in school history classes today.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                            Slumps come and slumps go, but the curses of Herb Score and Rocky Colavito live on forever :grouchy
                            I am sure you wish Mays was really remembered for his play in the 1973 W.S. and not the catch he made off of Vic Wertz in 1954. Greatest play or not, that is the play that is always replayed.
                            Focus on the negative, and that's what you get. Myopia is not contagious.
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                            • #44
                              ElHalo, as an Angel fan, should think of Reggie as an Angel, though it might give him nightmares. I do, too, to tell you the truth - that great 1982, the first year I followed baseball, when the Angels almost went tot he Series. And then 1986, the 9th inning, his arm around Gene Mauch in the dugout, grinning proudly thinking of how that great manager was *finally* going to make the World Series, what might have made one of the classy sports photos of all time, and shown Reggie as more than just a hot dog but helped people realize there was more than just slugger to him, there wa a caring human being there, too. Then...well, I won't bring up the past :-)

                              I think of Griffey Jr. as a Mariner because he's played so *little* for the Reds. Mays, I think of for the catch in '54 and various other comments on his ability (like the quote "the only man who could have caught that ball had just hit it" in one book.) Seaver, with the Mets, b/c that's where he got his fame. Ruth, I think of as a Yankee.

                              Perry, I think of with that funny old-timers game uniform with 8 different logos sewn on it. LOL, what a picture.

                              I ranked him 6-8th best CF of all time. Let's see, even if you ranked him 4th, with 3 position players above him, the math shows that there can only be 2 other players at *each position* better than Griffey Jr. - 2 are allowed 3 - for him to be in the top 20 all time. That's hard for anyone to do.

                              BTW, you forgot Hank Aaron; someone could have a career in their late 30s like that again. However, I think Aaron's was partly due to his new park in Atlanta. (I think he would have set the record anyway, but in mid''75 or something, had the Braaves stayed. Again, he only played half his games there for 9 years. Take away 2-3 a yeaar, he stil makes it. But, it would have been tougher.))
                              If Baseball Integrated Early - baseball integrated from the beginning - and "Brotherhood and baseball," the U.S. history companion, at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Baseballifsandmore - IBIE updated for 2011.

                              "Full House Chronology" at yahoo group fullhousefreaks & fullhouse4life with help of many fans, thanks for the input

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DTF955
                                Let's see, even if you ranked him 4th, with 3 position players above him, the math shows that there can only be 2 other players at *each position* better than Griffey Jr. - 2 are allowed 3 - for him to be in the top 20 all time. That's hard for anyone to do.
                                Does that mean that since piazza is one the the top 2-3 all around catchers, that makes him a top-20 all time player?
                                My top 10 players:

                                1. Babe Ruth
                                2. Barry Bonds
                                3. Ty Cobb
                                4. Ted Williams
                                5. Willie Mays
                                6. Alex Rodriguez
                                7. Hank Aaron
                                8. Honus Wagner
                                9. Lou Gehrig
                                10. Mickey Mantle

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