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  • Defunct NL teams all star team

    Most of the rules are identical to those in the Franchise Hall of Fame project, but with the notable additions of fixed candidate lists (which can be added to) and some clarifications for the group in question and a strong request that you make my job of tabulating the votes easier by listing players in alphabetical order. If I do not get sufficient compliance with this request, I will make it a requirement of an eligible ballot.

    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each group whereby each group will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that group's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each group.

    Standards: Each grouping has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another grouping's history. Standards from group to group will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the groups or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the group in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a group’s Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises or groups as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one group at a time and each election will last approximately two weeks, as these groups require more research than the franchises do IMHO..
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size after the first round. In the first round, you must name at least one person in each election in which you wish to participate. However, if you wish to cast a blank ballot in subsequent rounds, you must specify that you are casting a blank ballot, i.e., voting for no one.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted. However, a candidate needs a minimum of six votes to be elected.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each of my special elections (we will have a Defunct NL teams election, an American Association election, and a pre-1876 election as well), a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in the original order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Play for defunct National League teams are all eligible to be considered. However, only play for such teams is to be considered. The teams the players are eligible to be considered for are part of the master list.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to the defunct teams may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters.
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.


    Defunct NL teams - ROUND ONE
    This election will end on Friday, February 4, 2011, at 11:59:59 p.m.EST

    I will, unlike the companion franchise project, be using fixed lists of eligible players. I have striven to come up with rather comprehensive lists, but if you 1) are willing to vote for a candidate you nominate, and 2) provide at least some idea of why you think others should join you in that vote, I will consider adding anyone who meets the criteria of the group.

    I don't have anybody on the contributor list for this group, so absent some quick suggestions, we'll dispense with that part of the ballot this time around. The players are broken into pitchers and position players, with a list of the teams that fit this category. You can consider the contributions from multiple teams as all fitting this category.

    Pitchers
    Lady Baldwin Det
    Henry Boyle ind/StL Maroons
    George Bradley Cle/Pro/Tro
    Pete Conway Det/Buf/KC
    Bert Cunningham Lou
    Nig Cuppy Cle
    One Arm Daily Was/Buf/Cle/StL Maroons
    Jim Devlin Lou
    Pud Galvin Buf
    Charlie Getzien Det/Cle/Ind
    Henry Gruber Det/Cle
    Egyptian Healy Ind/Was/Bal/Lou/StL Maroons
    George Hemming Lou/Bal/Cle
    Tim Keefe Tro
    Al Maul Was/Bal
    Jim McCormick Ind/Cle/Pro
    Sadie McMahon Bal
    Win Mercer Was
    Hank O'Day Was
    Old Hoss Radbourn Pro
    Lee Richmond Wor/Pro
    Dupee Shaw Was/Pro/Det
    Scott Stratton Lou
    Charlie Sweeney Pro/StL Maroons
    Monte Ward Pro
    Mickey Welch Tro
    Jim Whitney Was/KC/Ind
    Stump Wiedman Buf/Det/KC
    Cy Young Cle

    Position players
    Charlie Abbey Was
    Charley Bassett Pro/KC/Ind
    Charlie Bennett Mil/Was/Det
    Harry Blake Cle
    Steve Brodie Bal
    Dan Brouthers Buf/Det/Tro/Bal/Lou
    Tom Brown Lou/Was/Ind
    Jesse Burkett Cle
    Cliff Carroll Pro/Was
    Ed Cartwright Was
    Cupid Childs Cle
    Fred Clarke Lou
    Billy Clingman Lou
    Roger Connor Tro
    George Davis Cle
    Gene DeMontreville Was/Bal
    Jerry Denny Pro/Ind/Cle/Lou/StL Maroons
    Jim Donnelly Was/Ind/Bal/KC/Det
    Tommy Dowd Was/Cle
    Fred Dunlap Cle/Det/StL Maroons
    Buck Ewing Tro/Cle
    Jake Evans Tro/Cle/Wor
    Duke Farrell Was
    Jack Farrell Pro/Was/Syr
    Bob Ferguson Har/Tro
    Davy Force Buf/Was/Ath
    Barney Gilligan Pro/Cle/Was
    Jack Glasscock Cle/Ind/StL Maroons
    Ned Hanlon Det/Cle
    Paul Hines Pro/Was/Ind
    Pete Hotaling Cle/Wor
    Dummy Hoy Lou/Was
    Arthur Irwin Wor/Pro/Was
    Hughie Jennings Bal/Lou
    Bill Joyce Was
    Willie Keeler Bal
    Joe Kelley Bal
    Connie Mack Was
    Jimmy McAleer Cle
    Chippy McGarr Cle
    Jack McGeachey Det/Ind
    John McGraw Bal
    Deacon McGuire Was/Det
    Ed McKean Cle
    Mike Muldoon Cle
    George Myers Buf/Ind/ StL Maroons
    John O'Brien Lou/Was/Bal
    Jack O'Connor Cle
    Jim O'Rourke Pro/Buf/Was
    Fred Pfeffer Lou/Tro
    Bill Phillips Cle
    Blondie Purcell Buf/Bal/Syr/Cle
    Joe Quinn Was/Cle/Bal/StL Maroons
    Paul Radford Was/Pro/Cle/KC
    Heinie Reitz Bal/Was
    Hardy Richardson Buf/Det/Was
    Wilbert Robinson Bal
    Jack Rowe Buf/Det
    Emmett Seery Ind/Lou/StL Maroons
    Kip Selbach Was
    Orator Shaffer Ind/Cle/Buf/StL Maroons
    Billy Shindle Bal/Det
    Joe Start Pro/Har/Was
    Patsy Tebeau Cle
    Sam Thompson Det
    Larry Twitchell Det/Lou/Was/Cle
    Jake Virtue Cle
    Farmer Weaver Lou
    Deacon White Buf/Det/Cle
    George Wood Det/Bal/Wor
    Tom York Har/Pro/Cle
    Chief Zimmer Cle

    Contributors
    Frank Bancroft
    Barney Dreyfus
    Bob Ferguson
    Ned Hanlon
    Harry Pulliam
    Fred Stearns
    Patsy Tebeau
    Bill Watkins
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-26-2011, 02:37 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    My ballot:
    Charlie Bennett
    Dan Brouthers
    Jesse Burkett
    Cupid Childs
    Nig Cuppy
    Pud Galvin
    Jack Glasscock
    Hughie Jennings
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    Jim McCormick
    Ed McKean
    John McGraw
    Charlie Radbourn
    Cy Young

    Contributors
    Frank Bancroft
    Bob Ferguson
    Ned Hanlon

    In my queue: Hardy Richardson, Paul Hines, Jack Rowe, Fred Clarke, Chief Zimmer, Monte Ward, Sadie McMahon
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-26-2011, 02:38 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ballot:

      Charlie Bennett
      Dan Brouthers
      Jesse Burkett
      Cupid Childs
      Duke Farrell
      Pud Galvin
      Jack Glasscock
      Paul Hines
      Hughie Jennings
      Willie Keeler
      Joe Kelley
      Jim McCormick
      Charlie Radbourn
      Hardy Richardson
      Cy Young

      Comment


      • #4
        I suppose this group is intended to cover the entire histories of the defunct NL clubs.
        So Pete Browning should be on the list along with Guy Hecker, for example.
        If not, then Hecker should be off the list with Browning, for example.

        Comment


        • #5
          Here is a valid ballot. The Contributors are most likely to change, by addition as well as edition.

          Players (15)
          Charlie Bennett Mil/Was/Det
          Dan Brouthers Buf/Det/Tro/Bal/Lou
          Jesse Burkett Cle
          Cupid Childs Cle
          Fred Dunlap Cle/Det/StL Maroons
          Jack Glasscock Cle/Ind/StL Maroons
          Paul Hines Pro/Was/Ind
          Hughie Jennings Bal/Lou
          Willie Keeler Bal
          Joe Kelley Bal
          John McGraw Bal
          Deacon McGuire Was/Det
          Charley Radbourn Pro
          Hardy Richardson Buf/Det/Was
          Cy Young Cle


          Contributors (5)
          Frank Bancroft, Wor/Det/Cle/Pro/Ind [founding manager/gm Wor & Det, winning manager Pro, ?John Brush rhm Ind?]
          Jack Chapman, Lou/Mil/Wor/Det/Buf/Lou manager
          Bob Ferguson, Har/Tro manager (among stints with other mlb teams)
          Ned Hanlon Det/Cle [Baltimore manager/gm & minority owner]
          Patsy Tebeau Cle [captain/manager]



          Some others:

          Joe Start, Tom York
          Jim McCormick
          Jim Galvin, Jim O'Rourke, Jack Rowe, Deacon White
          Nig Cuppy, Ed McKean, Charlie Zimmer
          Wilbert Robinson
          Fred Clarke

          That group but not my ballot is limited to longtime players for one team, as the layout implies. It doesn't embody any attention to "journeymen" such as Dummy Hoy.
          Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-28-2011, 11:25 AM. Reason: react to #7; extend to 5 contributors

          Comment


          • #6
            dupli-post

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
              I suppose this group is intended to cover the entire histories of the defunct NL clubs.
              So Pete Browning should be on the list along with Guy Hecker, for example.
              If not, then Hecker should be off the list with Browning, for example.
              Nope. The AA portion is excluded, as I'm doing a separate election for the AA. The NL years are all that count.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Position Players (15)
                Charlie Bennett
                Dan Brouthers
                Jesse Burkett
                Pud Galvin
                Jack Glasscock
                Paul Hines
                Hughie Jennings
                Willie Keeler
                Jim McCormick
                Jim O'Rourke
                Hardy Richardson
                Joe Start
                Monte Ward
                Deacon White
                Cy Young

                Contributors (5)
                Frank Bancroft
                Ned Hanlon
                Harry Pulliam
                Fred Stearns
                Bill Watkins
                RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                  I suppose this group is intended to cover the entire histories of the defunct NL clubs.
                  So Pete Browning should be on the list along with Guy Hecker, for example.
                  If not, then Hecker should be off the list with Browning, for example.
                  Hecker has been removed. Thanks.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    bumping this thread up a bit
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Charlie Bennett
                      Dan Brouthers
                      Jesse Burkett
                      Roger Connor
                      George Davis
                      Buck Ewing
                      Hughie Jennings
                      Tim Keefe
                      Willie Keeler
                      Joe Kelley
                      John McGraw
                      Charley Radbourn
                      Joe Start
                      Deacon White
                      Cy Young
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        While I would really like to contribute, my difficulty in doing this is isolating a player's contributions to just defunct NL franchises and then determining which 15 are most deserving without doing a great deal of research. Granted, I'm familiar with most all of these players to at least some degree (especially with the star players), but in the rapidly evolving game of the 19th Century, where seasons lengths were generally much shorter but frequently changing, and players jumped around quite a bit from not only team to team but league to league, it's hard for me to quickly identify what 15 of these players did the most for defunct NL franchises as opposed to star players that may have contributed more to still operational or defunct AA franchises. But, I'll certainly pay attention to the voting in this thread to get a better idea.

                        Anyway, I didn't want anyone to think that I ignored this or Jim's hardwork in putting this list together, and felt I should explain why I probably will not have a ballot in this project which is closely related to the franchise project I'm currently running.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Players:
                          Charlie Bennett
                          Dan Brouthers
                          Jesse Burkett
                          Fred Dunlap
                          Jim Galvin
                          Jack Glasscock
                          Paul Hines
                          Willie Keeler
                          Joe Kelley
                          Charlie Radbourn
                          Hardy Richardson
                          Joe Start
                          Jim O'Rourke
                          Deacon White
                          Cy Young

                          Contributors
                          Frank Bancroft
                          Barney Dreyfuss
                          Bob Ferguson
                          Ned Hanlon
                          Fred Stearns

                          Whew...that was ridiculously hard, and I won't deny I picked some of my personal favorites when a strong case could be made for other candidates, but I think my guys are equally solid choices.

                          The saving grace was being able to do the contributors without having to consider any broadcasters. Yet another reason the nineteenth century game was simply better.
                          “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have added the requirement that a player cannot be elected with less than six (6) votes. It's simply a matter of ensuring each election is worth my time.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Players:

                              Charlie Bennett
                              Dan Brouthers
                              Jesse Burkett
                              Roger Connor
                              George Davis
                              Buck Ewing
                              Pud Galvin
                              Jack Glasscock
                              Tim Keefe
                              Willie Keeler
                              Joe Kelley
                              Old Hoss Radbourn
                              Sam Thompson
                              Monte Ward
                              Cy Young


                              Contributors:

                              Barney Dreyfuss
                              Ned Hanlon
                              Bob Ferguson
                              Harry Pulliam

                              Comment

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