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American Association all-star team, round 1

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  • American Association all-star team, round 1

    Most of the rules are identical to those in the Franchise Hall of Fame project, but with the notable additions of fixed candidate lists (which can be added to) and some clarifications for the group in question and a strong request that you make my job of tabulating the votes easier by listing players in alphabetical order. If I do not get sufficient compliance with this request, I will make it a requirement of an eligible ballot.

    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each group whereby each group will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that group's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each group.

    Standards: Each grouping has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another grouping's history. Standards from group to group will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the groups or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the group in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a group’s Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises or groups as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one group at a time and each election will last approximately two weeks, as these groups require more research than the franchises do IMHO..
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size after the first round. In the first round, you must name at least one person in each election in which you wish to participate. However, if you wish to cast a blank ballot in subsequent rounds, you must specify that you are casting a blank ballot, i.e., voting for no one.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted. However, a candidate needs a minimum of six votes to be elected.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each of my special elections (we will have a Defunct NL teams election, an American Association election, and a pre-1876 election as well), a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in the original order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Play for defunct National League teams are all eligible to be considered. However, only play for such teams is to be considered. The teams the players are eligible to be considered for are part of the master list.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to the defunct teams may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters.
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.


    American Association - ROUND ONE
    This election will end on Friday, February 18, 2011, at 11:59:59 p.m.EST

    I will, unlike the companion franchise project, be using fixed lists of eligible players. I have striven to come up with rather comprehensive lists, but if you 1) are willing to vote for a candidate you nominate, and 2) provide at least some idea of why you think others should join you in that vote, I will consider adding anyone who meets the criteria of the group.

    I only have a few names on the contributor list for this group, but if you cast a ballot listing qualifying names, I'll add them to make a better list. The players are broken into pitchers and position players.

    Contributor
    Chris von der Ahe
    Billy Barnie
    Charles Byrne
    O.P. Caylor
    Charlie Comiskey
    Bill McGunnigle
    Denny McKnight
    Zack Phelps
    Gus Schmelz
    Bill Sharsig
    Pop Snyder
    Aaron Stern
    Jimmy Williams
    Wheeler Wykoff

    Pitchers
    Bob Barr
    Bob Caruthers
    Elton Chamberlin
    Ed Cushman
    Dave Foutz
    Guy Hecker
    Hardie Henderson
    Tim Keefe
    Matt Kilroy
    Silver King
    Jack Lynch
    Bobby Mathews
    Al Mays
    Jumbo McGinnis
    Sadie McMahon
    Ed Morris
    Tony Mullane
    Henry Porter
    Toad Ramsey
    Ed Seward
    Elmer Smith
    Jack Stivetts
    Scott Stratton
    Adonis Terry
    Gus Weyhing
    Will White

    Position players
    Sam Barkley
    Lou Bierbauer
    Jack Boyle
    Steve Brady
    Tom Brown
    Pete Browning
    Oyster Burns
    Hick Carpenter
    Hub Collins
    Charlie Commiskey
    Pop Corkhill
    Jumbo Davis
    Charlie Duffee
    Frank Fennelly
    Shorty Fuller
    Joe Gerhardt
    Bill Gleason
    Bill Greenwood
    Mike Griffin
    Frank Hankinson
    Charley Jones
    Jim Keenan
    John Kerins
    Bill Kuehne
    Henry Larkin
    Arlie Latham
    Denny Lyons
    Reddy Mack
    Fred Mann
    Leech Maskrey
    Tommy McCarthy
    Bill McClellan
    Bid McPhee
    Jim McTamany
    Jocko Milligan
    Candy Nelson
    Hugh Nicol
    Darby O'Brien
    Jack O'Brien
    Tip O'Neill
    Dave Orr
    Bill Phillips
    George Pinckney
    Blondie Purcell
    Paul Radford
    John Reilly
    Wilbert Robinson
    Yank Robinson
    Chief Roseman
    Germany Smith
    Pop Smith
    Pop Snyder
    Joe Sommer
    Ecky Stearns
    Harry Stovey
    Cub Stricker
    Ed Swartwood
    White Wings Tebeau
    Tommy Tucker
    Farmer Weaver
    Curt Welch
    Joe Werrick
    Bill White
    Chicken Wolf
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-06-2011, 01:22 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    My ballot
    Contributor
    Chris von der Ahe
    O. P. Caylor
    Charlie Commiskey
    Denny McKnight

    Players
    Pete Browning
    Bob Caruthers
    Dave Foutz
    Guy Hecker
    Tim Keefe
    Matt Kilroy
    Silver King
    Denny Lyons
    Bid McPhee
    Ed Morris
    Tony Mullane
    Tip O’Neill
    Dave Orr
    Harry Stovey
    Will White

    In my player queue: Toad Ramsey- John Reilly- Ed Seward - Jack Stivetts
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-18-2011, 05:47 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      Great idea, Jim. I'll participate with gusto.

      Players
      Pete Browning
      Bob Caruthers
      Guy Hecker
      Tim Keefe
      Matt Kilroy
      Silver King
      Denny Lyons
      Bid McPhee
      Ed Morris
      Tony Mullane
      Tip O’Neill
      Ed Seward
      Jack Stivetts
      Harry Stovey
      Will White

      Contributors
      Chris von der Ahe

      Comment


      • #4
        So contributions to the AA ancestors of the Reds, Cardinals, Pirates, and Dodgers are to be considered here? I considered the AA play of guys like Bid McPhee for DoubleX's Reds election, and I had thought your intent here was to supplement his project rather than overlap it. It's fine with me either way, but I'm just looking for some clarification.
        *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DJC View Post
          So contributions to the AA ancestors of the Reds, Cardinals, Pirates, and Dodgers are to be considered here? I considered the AA play of guys like Bid McPhee for DoubleX's Reds election, and I had thought your intent here was to supplement his project rather than overlap it. It's fine with me either way, but I'm just looking for some clarification.
          This is the one of the few cases of overlap--and I think avoiding overlap in this instance would just defeat the point of even doing an AA election, so the overlap will stand. There may be some overlap for the pre-1876 bunch as well, but again, I think the point of doing it without any overlap would defeat the purpose of doing it at all.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #6
            Some contributor suggestions:

            Denny McKnight--President of the AA from 1882-1885 and owner/founder of the Pittsburgh Alleghenys who would go on to become the Pirates.
            Pop Snyder--Manager of the Red Stockings, and umpire in all major leagues from 1982-1901. His career as a player, manager and umpire makes him someone who could be considered as a contributor.
            Bill McGunnigle--Managed the Dodgers to their best years in the AA.
            Charlie Comiskey--It's hard to overlook his success as the manager of the St. Louis Browns.
            O.P. Caylor--Writer for Reds and one of the main figures associated with the founding of the American Association.
            Last edited by jjpm74; 02-05-2011, 01:15 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Players:

              Bob Caruthers
              Dave Foutz
              Guy Hecker
              Tim Keefe
              Matt Kilroy
              Silver King
              Denny Lyons
              Bid McPhee
              Ed Morris
              Tony Mullane
              Tip O'Neill
              Dave Orr
              Jack Stivetts
              Harry Stovey
              Will White

              Contributors:

              O.P. Caylor
              Charlie Comisky
              Denny McKnight
              Pop Snyder
              Chris Von der ahe
              Last edited by jjpm74; 02-17-2011, 09:32 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                Some contributor suggestions:

                Denny McKnight--President of the AA from 1882-1885 and owner/founder of the Pittsburgh Alleghenys who would go on to become the Pirates.
                Pop Snyder--Manager of the Red Stockings, and umpire in all major leagues from 1982-1901. His career as a player, manager and umpire makes him someone who could be considered as a contributor.
                Bill McGunnigle--Managed the Dodgers to their best years in the AA.
                Charlie Comiskey--It's hard to overlook his success as the manager of the St. Louis Browns.
                O.P. Caylor--Writer for Reds and one of the main figures associated with the founding of the American Association.
                These will be added.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Players
                  Pete Browning
                  Bob Caruthers
                  Ice Box Chamberlin
                  Dave Foutz
                  Guy Hecker
                  Tim Keefe
                  Matt Kilroy
                  Silver King
                  Ed Morris
                  Tony Mullane
                  Tip O'Neill
                  Dave Orr
                  Jack Stivetts
                  Harry Stovey
                  Will White
                  *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some additional contributor candidates:

                    Billy Barnie, manager and owner or co-owner of Baltimore for much of its tenure in the Association. He ran the club, although admittedly usually without great success, essentially out of his personal checkbook for much of the time.

                    Charles Byrne, president of the Brooklyn club, a leader in the boardroom almost from the time his club joined in 1884, and in the late 1880's he led an aggressive policy of player purchases that made Brooklyn the champion in 1889. To my mind a decidedly more influential figure in the club than McGunnigle.

                    Zack Phelps, sometimes Louisville president, twice president of the Association and as the most eminent attorney in the group, sometimes a key figure in organizational strategizing.

                    Gus Schmelz, as an unknown tabbed to manage Columbus, probably because they couldn't find a manager anyone had heard of to take the job, he made his name with a surprise second place finish in 1884. Subsequently managed Cincinnati for three seasons and Columbus again in 1890-91, with another strong finish in 1890. This is probably more years managing in the AA by anybody other than Comiskey and one or two owner-managers. Also managed three NL clubs. I take a slightly jaded view of the matter myself, but some people now tout Schmelz as a leader and innovator in the development of little ball tactics in the late '80's and '90's.

                    Bill Sharsig, manager and/or co-owner of the Athletics for most of their time in the AA.

                    Aaron Stern, president of Cincinnati for most of its time in the AA. Now completely forgotten, but he had a reputation in his day as the only man who had ever made baseball pay in the Queen City.

                    Jimmy Williams, highly respected national baseball figure who was the Association's first secretary before resigning in 1884 to make an unsuccessful run at managing St. Louis. Later helped organize the Cleveland club and managed it for a year and a half.

                    Wheeler Wykoff, really not much more than a chief clerk, but he deserves some recognition as the Association's president with one very brief interruption from 1884 to 1889, more than all the other presidents put together.
                    “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Players:
                      Pete Browning
                      Bob Caruthers
                      Charlie Comiskey
                      Matt Kilroy
                      Silver King
                      Arlie Latham
                      Bid McPhee
                      Ed Morris
                      Tony Mullane
                      Dave Orr
                      Tom Ramsey
                      John Reilly
                      Pop Snyder
                      Harry Stovey
                      Curt Welch

                      Contributors:
                      Billy Barnie
                      Charles Byrne
                      Gus Schmelz
                      Billy Sharsig
                      Chris von der Ahe
                      “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Beady View Post
                        Some additional contributor candidates:

                        Billy Barnie, manager and owner or co-owner of Baltimore for much of its tenure in the Association. He ran the club, although admittedly usually without great success, essentially out of his personal checkbook for much of the time.

                        Charles Byrne, president of the Brooklyn club, a leader in the boardroom almost from the time his club joined in 1884, and in the late 1880's he led an aggressive policy of player purchases that made Brooklyn the champion in 1889. To my mind a decidedly more influential figure in the club than McGunnigle.

                        Zack Phelps, sometimes Louisville president, twice president of the Association and as the most eminent attorney in the group, sometimes a key figure in organizational strategizing.

                        Gus Schmelz, as an unknown tabbed to manage Columbus, probably because they couldn't find a manager anyone had heard of to take the job, he made his name with a surprise second place finish in 1884. Subsequently managed Cincinnati for three seasons and Columbus again in 1890-91, with another strong finish in 1890. This is probably more years managing in the AA by anybody other than Comiskey and one or two owner-managers. Also managed three NL clubs. I take a slightly jaded view of the matter myself, but some people now tout Schmelz as a leader and innovator in the development of little ball tactics in the late '80's and '90's.

                        Bill Sharsig, manager and/or co-owner of the Athletics for most of their time in the AA.

                        Aaron Stern, president of Cincinnati for most of its time in the AA. Now completely forgotten, but he had a reputation in his day as the only man who had ever made baseball pay in the Queen City.

                        Jimmy Williams, highly respected national baseball figure who was the Association's first secretary before resigning in 1884 to make an unsuccessful run at managing St. Louis. Later helped organize the Cleveland club and managed it for a year and a half.

                        Wheeler Wykoff, really not much more than a chief clerk, but he deserves some recognition as the Association's president with one very brief interruption from 1884 to 1889, more than all the other presidents put together.
                        They have been added to the list.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you look at the American Association pitchers and catchers, would they be the Double-A Batteries?

                          P- Tony Mullane
                          P- Bob Caruthers
                          P- Guy Hecker
                          P- Dave Foutz
                          C- Jocko Milligan
                          1B- John Reilly
                          1B- Dave Orr
                          2B- Bid McPhee
                          3B- Arlie Latham
                          3B- Denny Lyons
                          SS- Frank Fennelly
                          OF- Harry Stovey
                          OF- Tip O'Neill
                          OF- Pete Browning
                          OF- Curt Welch

                          --------------------------

                          Charlie Comiskey
                          Pop Snyder
                          Harmar "Denny" McKnight
                          Chris von der Ahe
                          Last edited by Second Base Coach; 02-06-2011, 04:40 PM.
                          Your Second Base Coach
                          Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                            If you look at the American Association pitchers and catchers, would they be the Double-A Batteries?
                            < rimshot >
                            *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John O. Kelly
                              The major leagues introduced staff umpires during 1882 and "Honest John" O. Kelly was on the National League roster, second to Foghorn George Bradley in games worked that season.
                              : "1882 ML Umpires" in the Retrosheet encyclopedia
                              He is the name umpire for the Association 1883 to 1886 and he worked (some of?) the world's championship series with the NL name umpire Dave Gaffney. Remarkably, it seems today, they both left the staffs for the bench in 1887, Kelly to manage Louisville and Gaffney to manage Washington (including Joe Start early in the season, Connie Mack late!). Next season they both returned to the opposite staffs, Kelly the League and Gaffney the Association.

                              Ironically, John O. is "Kick" Kelly in baseball encyclopedias, presumably because he was a player who made life difficult for the umpires, in the old days when the latter were local part-time workers.

                              Comment

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