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Pre-1876 all stars, round 1

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  • Pre-1876 all stars, round 1

    Pre 1875 all-star team, round 1

    Most of the rules are identical to those in the Franchise Hall of Fame project, but with the notable additions of fixed candidate lists (which can be added to) and some clarifications for the group in question and a strong request that you make my job of tabulating the votes easier by listing players in alphabetical order. If I do not get sufficient compliance with this request, I will make it a requirement of an eligible ballot.

    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each group whereby each group will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that group's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each group.

    Standards: Each grouping has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another grouping's history. Standards from group to group will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the groups or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the group in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a group’s Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises or groups as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one group at a time and each election will last approximately two weeks, as these groups require more research than the franchises do IMHO..
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size after the first round. In the first round, you must name at least one person in each election in which you wish to participate. However, if you wish to cast a blank ballot in subsequent rounds, you must specify that you are casting a blank ballot, i.e., voting for no one.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted. However, a candidate needs a minimum of six votes to be elected.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each of my special elections (we will have a Defunct NL teams election, an American Association election, and a pre-1876 election as well), a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in the original order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Play for pre 1976 teams are all eligible to be considered. However, only play for such teams is to be considered. The teams the players are eligible to be considered for are part of the master list.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to the pre 1876 teams may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters.
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.
    pre 1876 - ROUND ONE
    This election will end on Friday ,March 4, 2011, at 11:59:59 p.m.EST

    I will, unlike the companion franchise project, be using fixed lists of eligible players. I have striven to come up with rather comprehensive lists, but if you 1) are willing to vote for a candidate you nominate, and 2) provide at least some idea of why you think others should join you in that vote, I will consider adding anyone who meets the criteria of the group.

    I only have a few names on the contributor list for this group, but if you cast a ballot listing qualifying names, I'll add them to make a better list. The players are broken into pitchers and position players.

    Contributors
    Doc Adams
    Theodore Bomeisler
    Alexander Cartwright
    Octavius Catto
    Harry Chadwick
    Aaron Champion
    Jim Creighton
    Abner Doubleday (for those who still believe in that myth, along with Santa and the Easter Bunny)
    Bob Ferguson
    Thomas Fitzgerald
    Hicks Hayhurst
    Billy McLean
    Jacob C. White, Jr.
    Harry Wright

    Pitchers
    Asa Brainard
    Jim Creighton
    Candy Cummings
    Cherokee Fisher
    Bobby Mathews
    Dick McBride
    Al Spalding
    George Zettlein

    Position players
    Bob Addy
    Doug Allison
    Cap Anson
    Ross Barnes
    George Bechtel
    Esteban Bellan
    Jack Burdock
    Tom Carey
    Octavius Catto
    John Chapman
    John Clapp
    Bill Craver
    Ned Cuthbert
    Herman Dehlman
    Dave Eggler
    Bob Ferguson
    Wes Fisler
    Davy Force
    Chick Fulmer
    Count Gedney
    John Glenn
    Charlie Gould
    George Hall
    Scott Hastings
    John Hatfield
    Nat Hicks
    Dick Higham
    Paul Hines
    Jim Holdsworth
    Dan Kleinfelder
    Joe Leggett
    Andy Leonard
    Denny Mack
    Fergy Malone
    Harry Manolt
    Mike McGeary
    John McMullin
    Cal McVey
    Levi Meyerle
    Charlie Mills
    Everett Mills
    Candy Nelson
    Jim O'Rourke
    Dickey Pearce
    Lip Pike
    John Price
    John Radcliff
    Al Reach
    Jack Remsen
    Harry Schafer
    Count Sensenderfer
    Charles Smith
    George Smith
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton
    Charlie Sweasy
    Fred Treacey
    Fred Waterman
    Deacon White
    George Wright
    Harry Wright
    Sam Yates
    Tom York
    Nick Young
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-19-2011, 01:31 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    My ballot

    Contributors
    Doc Adams
    Harry Chadwick
    Jim Creighton
    Bob Ferguson
    Harry Wright


    Players
    Barnes
    Cummings
    Mathews
    McBride
    Mc Vey
    Meyerle
    Pearce
    Pike
    Reach
    Spalding
    Start
    Sutton
    D. White
    G. Wright
    Last edited by jalbright; 03-04-2011, 06:39 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      Players:

      Ross Barnes
      Asa Brainard
      Jim Creighton
      Candy Cummings
      Paul Hines
      Cal McVey
      Levi Meyerle
      Dickey Pearce
      Lip Pike
      Al Reach
      Al Spalding
      Joe Start
      Ezra Sutton
      Deacon White
      George Wright

      Contributors:

      Doc Adams
      Alexander Cartwright
      Henry Chadwick
      Bob Ferguson
      Harry Wright

      Considering:

      Cap Anson
      John Clapp
      Dave Eggler
      Wes Fisler
      Davy Force
      George Hall
      Dick Higham
      Paul Hines
      Andy Leonard
      Dick McBride
      Jim O'Rourke
      Charlie Sweasy
      Feed Waterman
      George Zettlein

      Fr anyone wondering why Asa Brainard is on my round 1 ballot as a player, he was the bridge from Creighton to Spalding and by reputation was the best pitcher between those two. By 1871, his career was already winding down.
      Last edited by jjpm74; 02-19-2011, 07:07 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jalbright View Post
        Al Reach
        Al Reach had a reputation as being a good player, but all stats suggest that he was not among the best 20 players in the NA. His notoriety comes after his baseball career ends and post-1876. Did he have any notoriety prior to 1871? I'm wondering if I'm missing something here.

        Bob Ferguson definitely deserves consideration as a contributor here since he served as NA president for much of its existence.
        Last edited by jjpm74; 02-18-2011, 12:00 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Going back to the end of the Civil War (1865), he had been a rather good 2B. Even by 1876, he'd already started the business career that made him more of a force in the game. I think he makes the cut here, for reasons I'll go into below. It's so hard to get a firm feel for these guys and how to interpret their contributions in so many cases.

          He was on winning teams every year from 1861-1870 (except 1864), mostly the top 2 or 3 teams in each year. in 1866 he scored the third most runs, in 1867, the most runs, and in 1868, he had the fourth best runs per game average. I prefer a measure of runs divided by outs, where 0.67 starts to indicate a good player, and better than 1 run scored per out made is a star. Even excluding the five game 1864 season, Reach exceeded 1 run per out 6 out of the nine years from 1861-69 ( I don't have outs for 1870, so I won't comment on that). Four times, he exceeded two runs scored per out made. His career is a bit short for HOF consideration for me, but the standard here is a little lower.

          Some more on Reach's pre 1870 record:
          Code:
          year	team wins	team losses	runs	outs	ratio
          1861	8.......	4............	20	25	0.80
          1862	14.......	2............	25	15	1.67
          1863	10.......	0............	16	27	0.59
          1864	1........	4............	11	9	1.22
          1865	15......	3.............	57	44	1.30
          1866	23......	2.............	134	61	2.20
          1867	44.......	3.............	270	112	2.41
          1868	47......	3.............	256	121	2.12
          1869	45......	8.............	242	118	2.05
          .....	207.....	29...........	1031	532	1.94
          He's clearly a part of the more dominant teams of the era, and performed quite well after 1864.
          Last edited by jalbright; 02-18-2011, 04:52 PM.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm pretty solid on the nine players and 4 contributors I've names so far--but that leaves six open player spots and one open contributor spot. I'll certainly listen to pitches for candidates for those open slots.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jalbright View Post
              I'm pretty solid on the nine players and 4 contributors I've names so far--but that leaves six open player spots and one open contributor spot. I'll certainly listen to pitches for candidates for those open slots.
              First, thanks for the data on Al Reach. I have added him to my ballot and bumped Davy Force to my queue.

              There are 3 on my own ballot that are not on yours I feel confident enough about to keep on my ballot and present cases for:

              1. Levi Meyerle--In the NA's first official organized season, Meyerle played for the Philadelphia team at third base where he led the league in slugging, batting average, and on base average. He had a reputation as being one of the game's fiercest hitters, albeit for a short time.

              2. Asa Brainard--Brainard started playing in 1860 for the Excelsiors where he showed a great deal of promise as a hittter. Brainard may deserve some war credit as he missed a great deal of 1860, all of 1861 and most of 1862 to Civil War service. Following Creighton's unfortunate death, Brainard replaced him as the team's pitcher and would remain in that capacity full time for 4 seasons. After finally being replaced by Cummings, Brainard moved on to pitch briefly for the Washington club where he played against the strongest professional teams. Before open professionalism was legalized in 1868, Brainard became the lead pitcher on the most successful of all the franchises (the Red Stockings) where he was likely paid under the table or with some kind of job incentive as most of the best players in that era were compensated. Once professionalism was legalized, Brainard was one of the first five to receive a salary and pitched 70% of the Red Stockings games in 1869 and 1870 when the franchise lost only the occasional game. Granted, Brainard had the benefit of being surrounded by many of the very best in the game during these years, but the fact remains that even with pitchers like Cummings in the picture, H.Wright wanted Brainard enough to lure him to his franchise.

              3. Candy Cummings--Cummings succeeded Brainard on the Excelsiors and was one of the game's best pitchers from 1865-1877. In the National Association, only Al Spalding had a better record and Cummings gets some bonus points for his use of the curveball. Whether or not he actually invented the pitch is disputed, but it is a fact that he was the first to use the pitch effectively.

              After careful consideration, I have decided to move Jim Creighton onto my player ballot and Henry Chadwick onto my contributor ballot. Jim Creighton's career may have been short for player consideration, but he was by far the biggest early star of the game, the main reason baseball became as popular as it did, and baseball would not see another star held in the regard he was held in until Babe Ruth some 60 years later.

              I'm also not sold on White and Hines for the first round. If anyone wants to make a case for any of the Excelsiors players, Fordham Rose Hill players, Red Stocking players or for players like Octavius Catto, I'm listening.
              Last edited by jjpm74; 02-19-2011, 07:04 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ugh....

                While I am on board with a lot of these elections, I really think baseball "pre-1876" looked a lot like church league softball.
                Your Second Base Coach
                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                  Ugh....

                  While I am on board with a lot of these elections, I really think baseball "pre-1876" looked a lot like church league softball.
                  You are entitled to that opinion, and no one is forcing you to participate. There were elements of what you suggest, but there were also some players who were far better than anything you'll find in any local softball league. The object here is to identify those players.

                  The contributor side is very rich, as it has many of the guys who made the sport from its beginnings into the "National Pastime".

                  After this one, we go back to the Negro Leagues election, which may have several rounds left to go. The Defunct teams and the American Association both have at least one more round in them, but, based on both the collection of talent and the participation level, one more round may be it for both of them. As for this try, we'll see how much interest there is. It may not even have enough interest to elect anyone, which would probably end this group with one try. But I wouldn't feel right if we didn't try, and there's much to be learned by many of us about this unique time in baseball. I'm hoping we can achieve that, at least. If we do, I'll count the effort as a success.
                  Last edited by jalbright; 02-19-2011, 09:02 AM.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Players (15)
                    Cap Anson
                    Ross Barnes
                    Jim Creighton
                    Candy Cummings
                    Andy Leonard
                    Cal McVey
                    Jim O'Rourke
                    Dickey Pearce
                    Lip Pike
                    Al Reach
                    Al Spalding
                    Joe Start
                    Ezra Sutton
                    Deacon White
                    George Wright

                    Contributors (5)
                    Doc Adams
                    Alexander Cartwright
                    Henry Chadwick
                    Bob Ferguson
                    Harry Wright
                    Last edited by Ace Venom; 03-02-2011, 05:18 PM.
                    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      You are entitled to that opinion, and no one is forcing you to participate. There were elements of what you suggest, but there were also some players who were far better than anything you'll find in any local softball league. The object here is to identify those players.

                      The contributor side is very rich, as it has many of the guys who made the sport from its beginnings into the "National Pastime".

                      After this one, we go back to the Negro Leagues election, which may have several rounds left to go. The Defunct teams and the American Association both have at least one more round in them, but, based on both the collection of talent and the participation level, one more round may be it for both of them. As for this try, we'll see how much interest there is. It may not even have enough interest to elect anyone, which would probably end this group with one try. But I wouldn't feel right if we didn't try, and there's much to be learned by many of us about this unique time in baseball. I'm hoping we can achieve that, at least. If we do, I'll count the effort as a success.
                      But aren't we starved for data in the pre-1876 era? Didn't the rules change from year to year? (consider the fair-foul rule). If you change the rules enough, you aren't playing the same game from year to year, no? And in your reply, as the batter I ask you to throw me a low pitch. I can do that, according to the rules. But I will be careful to hit it towards one of your regulars. I see three of your players were pulled out of the stands once again.
                      Your Second Base Coach
                      Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                        But aren't we starved for data in the pre-1876 era? Didn't the rules change from year to year? (consider the fair-foul rule). If you change the rules enough, you aren't playing the same game from year to year, no? And in your reply, as the batter I ask you to throw me a low pitch. I can do that, according to the rules. But I will be careful to hit it towards one of your regulars. I see three of your players were pulled out of the stands once again.
                        The purpose here is to discuss notable early players. Not to advocate for any to go to the HOF. If you don't agree, don't participate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                          But aren't we starved for data in the pre-1876 era? Didn't the rules change from year to year? (consider the fair-foul rule). If you change the rules enough, you aren't playing the same game from year to year, no? And in your reply, as the batter I ask you to throw me a low pitch. I can do that, according to the rules. But I will be careful to hit it towards one of your regulars. I see three of your players were pulled out of the stands once again.
                          Even under those rules, some guys were stars, some were not. The best players scored many more runs per out made than did poorer players--and Marshall Wright's The National Association of Base Ball Players 1857-1870 has that data except for 1870. Is it perfect? Certainly not. I'd rather have much better data. If you prefer not to participate, I certainly understand and would not criticize anyone for refraining from involvement in these circumstances. But the Negro League data is messy, too--and we got through that. We're trying to identify the stars of the time--even if they were only stars of "church league softball".
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                            First, thanks for the data on Al Reach. I have added him to my ballot and bumped Davy Force to my queue.

                            There are 3 on my own ballot that are not on yours I feel confident enough about to keep on my ballot and present cases for:

                            1. Levi Meyerle--In the NA's first official organized season, Meyerle played for the Philadelphia team at third base where he led the league in slugging, batting average, and on base average. He had a reputation as being one of the game's fiercest hitters, albeit for a short time.

                            2. Asa Brainard--Brainard started playing in 1860 for the Excelsiors where he showed a great deal of promise as a hittter. Brainard may deserve some war credit as he missed a great deal of 1860, all of 1861 and most of 1862 to Civil War service. Following Creighton's unfortunate death, Brainard replaced him as the team's pitcher and would remain in that capacity full time for 4 seasons. After finally being replaced by Cummings, Brainard moved on to pitch briefly for the Washington club where he played against the strongest professional teams. Before open professionalism was legalized in 1868, Brainard became the lead pitcher on the most successful of all the franchises (the Red Stockings) where he was likely paid under the table or with some kind of job incentive as most of the best players in that era were compensated. Once professionalism was legalized, Brainard was one of the first five to receive a salary and pitched 70% of the Red Stockings games in 1869 and 1870 when the franchise lost only the occasional game. Granted, Brainard had the benefit of being surrounded by many of the very best in the game during these years, but the fact remains that even with pitchers like Cummings in the picture, H.Wright wanted Brainard enough to lure him to his franchise.

                            3. Candy Cummings--Cummings succeeded Brainard on the Excelsiors and was one of the game's best pitchers from 1865-1877. In the National Association, only Al Spalding had a better record and Cummings gets some bonus points for his use of the curveball. Whether or not he actually invented the pitch is disputed, but it is a fact that he was the first to use the pitch effectively.

                            After careful consideration, I have decided to move Jim Creighton onto my player ballot and Henry Chadwick onto my contributor ballot. Jim Creighton's career may have been short for player consideration, but he was by far the biggest early star of the game, the main reason baseball became as popular as it did, and baseball would not see another star held in the regard he was held in until Babe Ruth some 60 years later.

                            I'm also not sold on White and Hines for the first round. If anyone wants to make a case for any of the Excelsiors players, Fordham Rose Hill players, Red Stocking players or for players like Octavius Catto, I'm listening.
                            If the logic you advocate wins enough support for either (or both) Brainard or Cummings, I will likely vote for them and thus avoid blocking their candidacies. However, both have unspectacular won/loss records or the issue of how much of their success came from their teammates. Brainard when with the Reds clearly had winning records in 1869 and 1870. Unfortunately, in both years he gave up a run an inning or more (405 in 338 IP in 1869, an even run per inning in 1870. That gives me pause, to say the least. From 1871 on Brainard wasn't anything special from what I can see. Cummings had some success 1872-1876, so I'm a little more sympathetic to his case.

                            Looking more closely at Meyerle, from 1867-1869, he scored 286 runs and made 162 outs, a fine ratio of 1.77 runs/out. Combine that with some real success in the NA years, I'm persuaded to add him to my list.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Before I exclude them out of sheer ignorance, could anyone tell me who Sam Yates and George Smith are?

                              Also, is there any reason to include Catto on the players' list? Do we have any reason to think he was an outstanding player, or in fact any idea at all how good a player he was?

                              .492 is an impressive batting average, and Levi Meyerle is actually a long-time favorite of mine, but I would encourage everybody to look at his fielding before voting for him. There used to be a joke about Jim Lemon of the old Senators that he could be expected to field he little better than he hit -- bat around .275, field around .300. In 1871 Meyerle hit a lot better than .275, but he just about made the Lemon joke a reality -- more errors than either putouts or assists. The book of newspaper notes on early baseball published by Preston Orem contains a phrase I have cherished for many years: "the attenuated and semianesthetized Meyerle."
                              Last edited by Beady; 02-19-2011, 02:49 PM. Reason: oh, yeah...
                              “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                              Comment

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