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How is Ted Simmons not in HOF?

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  • #16
    Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RuthMayBond
      Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.
      I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?

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      • #18
        Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by The Commissioner
          Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.
          World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.
          John

          Stan Musial Pages
          CultureDose Media Reviews

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          • #20
            Originally posted by moviegeekjan
            World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.
            In Bill James' This Time Let's Not Eat the Bones James cites Simmons' unwillingness to move out from behind the plate.

            If Whitey Herzog didn't have the guts to run Ted Simmons out of St. Louis, he might as well have quit on the spot. Because if he didn't, from that moment on he was not the man-a-ger of anything.
            The man-a-ger thing is from an earlier reference in the essay to the movie Ragtime.

            Enjoy the Bill James reference Commissioner.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DoubleX
              I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?
              Do you believe Bench has a decent Hall of Fame case?
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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              • #22
                Since I did a Keltner List for Freehan, I might as well do one for Ted Simmons.

                1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

                No.

                2. Was he the best player on his team?

                He was the best player for St. Louis from 1975 to 1978, but the level of competition wasn’t that high. Sometimes he was the team’s only all-star.

                3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

                No. Being in the same league as Johnny Bench didn’t help.

                4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

                Not really – he was above average in 1982, but didn’t have 20 win shares.

                5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

                Yes, for a few seasons.

                6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

                No.

                7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

                Similarity Scores: Alan Trammell, Carlton Fisk, Joe Torre, Lou Whitaker, Gary Carter, Joe Cronin, Barry Larkin, Ryne Sandberg, Buddy Bell, Bobby Doerr. Half are in, and a couple more could be, so I’ll say yes.

                Catchers, Career Win Shares (+/-30): Carter 337, Hartnett 325, Simmons 315, Torre 315, Dickey 314. Yes; Simmons is tied for seventh.

                Top 3 seasons, win shares (+/-10): Campanella 94, Fisk 94, Freehan 90, Cochrane 89, Howard 89, Dickey 87, Simmons 86, Bresnahan 83, Daulton 83, Tenace 83, Hartnett 80. Six out of ten.

                Top 5 consecutive seasons, win shares (+/- 15): Cochrane 142, Carter 141, Campanella 134, Dickey 132, Tenace 127, Simmons 127, Freehan 126, Torre 126, Howard 119, Bresnahan 116, Hartnett 114. Simmon’s near the cut-off line, but he’s tied for eighth place overall.

                Win Shares per 162 games (+/- 2.5): Torre 23.10, Haller 22.41, Daulton 22.19, Schang 21.57, Simmons 20.78, Howard 20.49, Parrish 20.21, Porter 20.18, Tettleton 20.07, Steinbach 19.40, Lollar 19.33, Lombardi 19.06, Cooper 19.03, Duke Farrell 18,97, Roseboro 18.50, Crandall 18.43. Nope.

                I’d give Simmons a qualified yes here.

                8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

                Black Ink 0, Gray Ink 95, HOF Standards 44.5. Only one post-1920 HOF catcher has a black ink score above 8. Simmons is ahead of eight of the nine post-1920 HOF catchers in Gray Ink, however. HOF Standards is competitive, and he’s ahead of three of the nine; for catchers, a score of 40 is usually good enough for admission. So I’d say yes.

                9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

                Not really. He was about average defensively at his peak, and truly bad defensive catchers usually don’t manage to play 1,771 games behind the plate.

                10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

                I’d say Santop and Mackey are better. Among eligible ML catchers, he’s in a close race with Torre and Freehan. Bill James lists him as the best eligible major league catcher who is not in the Hall of Fame.

                11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

                His top finish in MVP voting was sixth, in 1975. He had one season with 30 win shares, and an additional three with 28.

                12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

                Simmons was named an All-Star eight times, which would put him on the HOF borderline.

                13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

                I don’t know. If you added some average players to the Cardinals, and gave them average pitching, they could have made a run for it.

                14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

                Not really, for the last three of these questions. However, he is the career leader in hits and doubles among major league catcher. Simmons made the top 100 lists in career hits and career doubles; he is the only catcher to make the top 100 in either list.

                15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

                As far as I know.

                Looking over the evidence, I would say Simmons belongs in the Hall of Fame.

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                • #23
                  Ted Simmons is overlooked

                  Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop

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                  • #24
                    Simmons, a superb hitting catcher, is usually considered to have been a marginall defender. Simmons and Wally Schang are very comparable catchers who are on the outside looking in. Not sure either is an HoFer, but they have a case.
                    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lindseynelson
                      Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop
                      I agree. I feel Simmons and Torre are the most overlooked catchers. I'd probably give the edge offensively to Torre, but Simmons caught 800 more game than Joe did.

                      Statistics [I've bolded all stats that Ted Simmons leads in compared to these two Hall of Fame Catchers]:

                      Gary Carter-
                      .262 BA | .335 OBP | .439 SLG | 115 OPS+ | 5.10 RC/27
                      2092 Hits | 324 Home Runs | 1225 RBI | 1025 Runs

                      Carlton Fisk-
                      .269 BA | .341 OBP | .437 SLG | 117 OPS+ | 5.37 RC/27
                      2356 Hits | 376 Home Runs | 1330 RBI | 1276 Runs

                      Ted Simmons-
                      .285 BA | .348 OBP | .437 SLG | 119 OPS+ | 5.48 RC/27
                      2472 Hits | 248 Home Runs | 1389 RBI | 1074 Runs
                      Last edited by candy curveball cummings; 09-12-2006, 10:00 AM.
                      "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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                      • #26
                        Ted was a very good hitter although even in his prime, if you were in a clutch situation, late in a game, I'd rather see someone else up. It's anecdotal eveidence, but it sure seemed like Ted would have a lot of big numbers in routs. Still, a hell of a hitter.

                        Defensively, at his very best, he was very average. When Herzog took over in June of 1980, he watched Ted behind the plate for the rest of the season and decided he needed to sign Darrell Porter as a free agent to catch. It wasn't only that Ted wasn't too great at blocking pitches or throwing our runners, but as Whitey mentioned the other teams wouldn't even bother using a out to sacrifice runners. So he was going to put Ted at 1B and move Hernandez to LF, but Ted decided he didn't want to do that, so Whitey traded him to Milwaukee.
                        It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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                        • #27
                          Yep, there's a joke for you, carter's in there and Simmons not. what a sham

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                          • #28
                            Ted Simmons: Overlooked?

                            He's not overlooked here. It's actually nice to see more well-balanced opinions here, because he gets a lot of love at BBF. Sometimes it's merely a case of hero worship, sometimes it is more an appreciation of a fine career.

                            As stated, he was good with the bat, but a .285 average doesn't bowl the voters over, even at the most difficult position. While he was playing I doubt anybody saw him as a sure thing for the Hall of Fame. "First rate backstop" is one description you would never hear. Adequate, around average, maybe even better than average, but not first rate. He was, for his time, one of the best in the game, but was always overshadowed by one or two catchers who were better at their position.
                            "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                            --Bob Feller

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 2Chance
                              He's not overlooked here. It's actually nice to see more well-balanced opinions here, because he gets a lot of love at BBF. Sometimes it's merely a case of hero worship, sometimes it is more an appreciation of a fine career.

                              As stated, he was good with the bat, but a .285 average doesn't bowl the voters over, even at the most difficult position. While he was playing I doubt anybody saw him as a sure thing for the Hall of Fame. "First rate backstop" is one description you would never hear. Adequate, around average, maybe even better than average, but not first rate. He was, for his time, one of the best in the game, but was always overshadowed by one or two catchers who were better at their position.

                              All around, good points. I'm not sure his .285 Average has anything to do with him not enshrined, other than voters don't feel it's enough to make up for his "average" defense, which is probably what you were saying. His .285 Average is better than 6 Hall of Fame catchers, and is the same as Yogi Berra's career mark.

                              I think you touched on the most important reason, in my opinion, Ted Simmons is not in the Hall of Fame. He played at the same time as Bench, Fisk, and Carter. Bench is probably the best ever. Fisk and Carter were better defensively than Simmons and also got more attention than he did.
                              "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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                              • #30
                                Simmons had a terrible defensive reputation while active. It was a reputation that was based in part on his throwing arm (the most overrated part of catching) and in part in his comparision to Bench. Post-career, there has been a reassessment of Simmons' defense, which is now considered to be a minor plus.

                                Is the reassessment correct? If so, it came too late; Simmons was one-and-done in the balloting. It will require a rule change for Simmons to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
                                "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                                NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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