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How is Ted Simmons not in HOF?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimAbbott
    Yep, there's a joke for you, carter's in there and Simmons not. what a sham
    Uh...why is it a sham??

    Carter was MUCH better defensively than Ted and almost as good offensively. Ted has a case for being in, but Carter was clearly better overall.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
      It will require a rule change for Simmons to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
      Simmons will be eligible for the veterans committee election in 2011.

      Simmons holds the record for career hits for his position. Can you imagine the leader in hits at any other position having difficulty making the Coop? It's ridiculous. He'd have to be Ernie Lombardi behind the plate not to deserve it...wait, they elected him. Hmm.

      Most every comparative poll we've had at BBF puts Ted in the HOF circle. I think you need a better reason than, "Gee, he just never seemed like a hall of famer" to keep him out.
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Freakshow
        Simmons holds the record for career hits for his position. Can you imagine the leader in hits at any other position having difficulty making the Coop? It's ridiculous. He'd have to be Ernie Lombardi behind the plate not to deserve it...wait, they elected him. Hmm.
        You would think that would be a big deal, but it seems as if people just blow that off.

        How many hits, by the way, did Simmons get as a catcher and how many did he get at other spots. Does anyone know?
        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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        • #34
          Count me in as a Simmons supporter, but as someone who doesn't really care about him holding the all time record for hits by a catcher. I don't understand the big deal with records and league leaderships and such. Does it actually equal value on the field? Well, sure, the guy who's the all time leader in hits at a position is likely to be valuable, but that requires inspection. If you do, you'll find Simmons is far from the best hitting catcher of all time, though he was a very good hitter, and he is probably good enough to get in despite his defensive shortcomings.

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          • #35
            Simmons overlooked

            One of the things that is overlooked about Ted Simmons is his consistent doubles hitting. He is overlooked mostly because he was not a home run hitter of the top magnitude--yet still averaging around 20 per season--but he averaged 30 doubles or more in his prime (compared to Yogi's low 20's, for example). Even Bench was erratic with doubles, some seasons having high thirties, other in the high teens.

            He also averaged more triples than bench.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by 538280
              Count me in as a Simmons supporter, but as someone who doesn't really care about him holding the all time record for hits by a catcher. I don't understand the big deal with records and league leaderships and such. Does it actually equal value on the field? Well, sure, the guy who's the all time leader in hits at a position is likely to be valuable, but that requires inspection. If you do, you'll find Simmons is far from the best hitting catcher of all time, though he was a very good hitter, and he is probably good enough to get in despite his defensive shortcomings.
              To me, hit totals are nice to look at, but pretty much meaningless. No one would ever put Harold Baines and Babe Ruth in the same sentence (unless that sentence is Babe Ruth is infinitely better than Harold Baines). However, Ruth has just 7 more hits in his career than Baines. It's not very difficult to rack up hits if you are a slightly above-average ball-smacker who is well-conditioned or has the option of playing DH.

              A single stat will never tell you what level to which a player belongs. However, when you look at the whole picture, all of the stats, the historical evidence, even some anecdotal evidence, you can get an idea of exactly what esteem a player should be held at.
              "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                You would think that would be a big deal, but it seems as if people just blow that off.

                How many hits, by the way, did Simmons get as a catcher and how many did he get at other spots. Does anyone know?
                Does Simmons have the most at catcher? I don't know what his breakdown is by position, but he had 2472 hits in his career and appeared in 685 games away from catcher. So using Ted's 162 game average of 163 hits, that would equate to roughly 547 hits at other positions. So that would give Ted 1782 hits at catcher (NOTE: I realize the many flaws in this method, I'm just seeing what happens for the sake of conversation; if anyone has the actual breakdown, please feel free to chime in).

                On the other hand...Carlton Fisk had 2356 hits for his career and he appeared in just 273 games away from catcher. His 162 average was 153. So that would give Fisk 2098 hits at catcher.

                On yet another hand...Bill Dickey had 1969 hits for his career, and he only appeared in 81 games in which he didn't play catcher (I assume he was pitch-hitting because defensively, he only ever played catcher). Dickey's 162 game average was 178 hits. So that would give Dickey approximately 1880 as a catcher.

                On still another hand, there is Ivan Rodriguez who has 2334 hits and he's appeared in very few games away from catcher, probably just under 100.

                So by using this very flawed method, it's possible that Simmons is as low as 4th in all time hits as a catcher. Even assuming that all 2472 of his hits were at catcher and none came in the other 685 games he appeared in (which is highly unlikely), Ivan Rodriguez will probably be passing Simmons sometime next year.

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                • #38
                  Simmons did one thing in his career that pissed me off and I'll never forget it. As a member of Atlanta in '86, he talked Dale Murphy into ending his long consecutive games streak and Murph listened to him. This was after Murph's broken hand had healed. Murph broke his hand but kept his streak alive vs the Mets with a big bandage on. Murph clobbered an HR off Gooden in that game

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                  • #39
                    Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

                    2145 Fisk
                    2116 I.Rodriguez
                    1908 Simmons
                    1907 Carter
                    1804 Piazza

                    Thanks, Retrosheet.
                    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Freakshow
                      Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

                      2145 Fisk
                      2116 I.Rodriguez
                      1908 Simmons
                      1907 Carter
                      1804 Piazza

                      Thanks, Retrosheet.
                      FWIW, Gary Carter probably holds the NL record for hits as a catcher, which Piazza will certainly break.
                      "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                      NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Freakshow
                        Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

                        2145 Fisk
                        2116 I.Rodriguez
                        1908 Simmons
                        1907 Carter
                        1804 Piazza

                        Thanks, Retrosheet.
                        Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DoubleX
                          Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.
                          Dickey had 18 pinch hits out of 1969 total in his career. Therefore, I assume he would be credited with 1951 at catcher.
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It's simply a question of him having the offensive merits to counter-act his defensive ones. Simmons was never known for be a great defensive backstop, or a great "pitcher's-catcher". Yes he has offensive merits, but do they overshadow his defensive shortcomings? I don't think they do...especially being a catcher. I feel to be in the hall as a catcher you need to be outstanding defensively to counter the usual poor to mediocre offensive performances.
                            "You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball."
                            --Albert Einstein
                            "Jimmy Connors plays two tennis matches and winds up with $850,000, and Muhammad Ali fights for one bout and winds up with five million bucks. Me, I play 190 games--if you count exhibitions -- and I'm overpaid!?"
                            --Johnny Bench

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DoubleX
                              Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.
                              Dickey had 1,969 career hits, and played catcher only. I wonder how many of those hits were pinch hits, which would not count as hits as a catcher.
                              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                                Dickey had 1,969 career hits, and played catcher only. I wonder how many of those hits were pinch hits, which would not count as hits as a catcher.
                                Apparently you missed, and I have no idea how considering it was two posts away:
                                Originally posted by Freakshow
                                Dickey had 18 pinch hits out of 1969 total in his career. Therefore, I assume he would be credited with 1951 at catcher.
                                Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
                                I hope that's all.

                                Comment

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