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How is Ted Simmons not in HOF?

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  • #46
    I think there is little question that Ted Simmons is the best catcher NOT in the HOF. Whether or not he should be in is a different question. But I can't think of another catcher outside the HOF who is better than Simmons was.

    Well, let's look. Was Simmons better than:

    Thurman Munson
    Lance Parrish
    Bob Boone
    Elston Howard
    Bill Freehan
    Sherm Lollar (a guy that NEVER gets mentioned)
    Darrell Porter
    Wally Schang
    Joe Torre
    Tim McCarver

    You tell me. Simmons clearly seems the best of this group as a catcher. I will probably concede that Torre has a better case, but his best year was at third base and he played a good chunk of his career outside the catcher's slot.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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    • #47
      I was going to make a lengthy post on why I think Joe Torre is clearly a better HOF candidate than Ted Simmons, until I saw your last line. But, yeah, Torre was a better hitter in context than Simmons and lasted longer. Simmons' only real advantage is that he just stayed at catcher for most of his career, but considering Torre did some great things at other positions (including winning an MVP at thrid base in 1971)-I don't see that being a valid argument.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
        I think there is little question that Ted Simmons is the best catcher NOT in the HOF. Whether or not he should be in is a different question. But I can't think of another catcher outside the HOF who is better than Simmons was.

        Well, let's look. Was Simmons better than:

        Thurman Munson
        Lance Parrish
        Bob Boone
        Elston Howard
        Bill Freehan
        Sherm Lollar (a guy that NEVER gets mentioned)
        Darrell Porter
        Wally Schang
        Joe Torre
        Tim McCarver

        You tell me. Simmons clearly seems the best of this group as a catcher. I will probably concede that Torre has a better case, but his best year was at third base and he played a good chunk of his career outside the catcher's slot.

        While I support Simmons for the Hall of Fame, I don't know if he's "clearly" better than Thurman Munson. Munson was better defensively and pretty close offensively. He was a better clutch hitter than Simmons. Had he not died in his prime, Munson would probably be in the Hall of Fame.

        Too me, there's no question that Joe Torre is the best catcher not in the hall, followed by Simmons and Munson.
        "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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        • #49
          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
          I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).
          Simmons was one and done with the writers.

          It was after this that there was a reassessment of Simmons' defense by some. Simmons was thought of as a defensive liability while active, but post-career reassessments have evaluated his defense as a slight plus.
          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

          Comment


          • #50
            Ted Simmons in the hall?

            Ted was a great player for his day, and surely deserved a better shot at the Hall than he got. I loved watching him play, and yes, he could flat out hit!

            Comment


            • #51
              With so few catchers in the HOF, where is Simmons regarding those who are in. Probably behind from Bench, Berra, Cochrane, Hartnett, Campanella and Dickey but I donĀ“t see too much difference between Simba and Fisk or Carter and that means the best seven or eight catchers in baseball history, with Piazza and Rodriguez still active.
              You have to suffer a revolution to know what are you talking about.

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              • #52
                simmons was my favorite player when i was a growing up (i still have an autographed ted simmons ball on my desk at home) and i'd love to see him make the HoF. i'd make the trip to cooperstown for that. but i've accepted the fact that he's not in and not likely to ever get in. the veterans commitee is so backed up that it's just unlikely that they'll ever get to him.

                based on his offensive numbers, he belongs. but the problem is that when you compare him to catchers with similiar numbers (fisk, carter, irod), people will say he doesn't stack up defensively (regardless of whether his defensive reputation is accurate or not). other players to whom he's similiar offensively, such as trammel and torre, have been rejected by the HoF voters.

                i'd love to see him get in but i just don't think it will ever happen.

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                • #53
                  I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.

                  He deserved more respect than one-and-done, but I wouldn't argue for his induction.

                  BTW, the best catcher not in the HoF is Joe Torre.
                  Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by KCGHOST
                    I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.
                    How is it revisionist history? Is going against anything that was throught back then due to new evidence revisionist? When it was proven that the sun was the center of the universe when people for thousands of years had believed that the earth was-is that revisionist to you? Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with it because it's finding truth rather than accepting things as fact because they've been said a million times. The records of Simmons' throwing out basestealers have been studied, play by play, every one, and he really was just about league average for throwing out runners. That isn't all of catching, of course, but the other parts weren't what Simmons usually got critcized for, it was his ability to throw out runners and really he didn't do such a bad job.

                    And anyway, even if Simmons was a below average catcher, his hitting numbers would be easily above average for a HOF catcher. His hitting is maybe just a small level below Bench and Berra and right with Carter and Fisk. If he was a very good defensive catcher like those guys were he'd be in the running for top 5 all time. As it is, he's in the running for top 10. I think that's ample penalty for his not all time great defense and I still think he deserves the HOF.

                    And BTW I agree Torre is better but Simmons still deserves it IMO.

                    ]

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by KCGHOST
                      I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.

                      He deserved more respect than one-and-done, but I wouldn't argue for his induction.

                      BTW, the best catcher not in the HoF is Joe Torre.
                      Revisionist history would be to say Ted Simmons was always thought of as a good defensive catcher. Everyone agrees he wasn't thought of at his time as a good defensive catcher, the idea is that the perception was misleading.
                      "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

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                      • #56
                        Ted Simmons

                        It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DiMag4Life View Post
                          It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.
                          I'd rather have Carter because of the defense, but Simmons deserves the honor, too IMO. I'm combining several threads on Simmons here.

                          Jim Albright
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                            I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).

                            Above Torre? Torre was probably a little better fielder all around, and a 5% better hitter.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DiMag4Life View Post
                              It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.
                              Carter rates as one of the top 20 if not top 10 defensive catchers in history. Simmons as a little below average. Carter was also a better hitter (129 OPS+ to 118). Carter was a TOP MVP candidate in the NL from '80-'86.

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                              • #60
                                --If Gary Carter had put up a 129 OPS+ I'd probably have him as the best catcher ever. He actually had a 115 to Simmons 118.

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