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Ranking the HoF Players: 16-20

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  • #46
    1) Charleston
    2) Dimaggio
    3) Grove
    4) Paige
    5) Grover Cleveland Alexander
    6) Schmidt
    7) Collins
    8) Bench
    9) Seaver
    10) Mathewson

    I have to admit that I am rating Henderson down because I think he probably used steroids for most of his career. I can't really tell you why. If anyone wants to speak up for him I'm listening.

    Coming up in no particular order:
    Anson
    Foxx
    Lajoie
    Morgan
    Brett
    Ripken
    Frank Robinson
    Ott
    Berra
    Pop Lloyd
    Bob Gibson
    Spahn
    SJ Williams

    Also, not up yet, but Koufax is one who I might bump up several spots from his "value" ranking.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by brett View Post
      I have to admit that I am rating Henderson down because I think he probably used steroids for most of his career. I can't really tell you why. If anyone wants to speak up for him I'm listening.
      I don't have any quibbles with your rating of Henderson, but I do have to point out I hope that you are never called for jury duty.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by brett View Post
        An issue about Negro Leaguers is that most of us, even if we recognize the importance of Gibson, Charleston, Paige, Stearnes, Bell are eventually going to be to ignorant (without a stat line) to vote them over an MLB player in good conscience. This is in part why I have a problem with the Sockeye issue. If he doesn't know enough or have enough data about any Negro Leaguers to put them on his ballot, he should be free to leave them off. The poll is as much a measure of the knowledge or ignorance of fever members as it is an idealized ranking of players. Its not "who is the greatest" it is "who does this group find to be the greatest".

        This is not a political election though Sockeye. It is not your job or prerogotive to create a desireable outcome. We live in a free country, and voting on a baseball poll is NOT one of our protected freedoms. The freedom lies with the poll taker to do what he wants, and the other voters to remove themselves from the process. The poll question is which 10 remaining hall of famers are most worthy, and in what order. Can you give your answer to that question?
        I think the first paragraph misses one critical fact: when a project begins, the person starting it sets the parameters. If you want to participate, you accept those parameters. In this case, there's absolutely no doubt that Negro Leaguers are part of the HOF and thus are part of the project. As such, Double X has the absolute right to expect a good faith attempt to comply with those parameters. If Sockeye can't comply with that, he should not participate, regardless of the nature of his objections. Double X does not have the right to require more than that, however.

        The thing is that the only way these projects work is if all the voters are acting in good faith. Good faith means I cast my ballot, you cast your ballot, and we all agree to let the chips fall where they may. The combination of Sockeye's behavoir is to try and make his ballot count more than yours or mine because of the manipulations he's engaging in.
        Last edited by jalbright; 08-31-2011, 07:26 PM.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
          I don't have any quibbles with your rating of Henderson, but I do have to point out I hope that you are never called for jury duty.
          Well if I were a trial juror I wouldn't care about guilt or innocence, just the evidenciary case. Its not a juror's job to convict the guilty or spare the innocent. Its my job here to present my rankings objectively whether my reasoning for those rankings is objective or not. Its not my job HERE to judge the player's "case" but to give my impression. I think the fact that I admit there is not a case against him shows that I can separate the two differing "responsibilities".

          I wonder how many people had a funny feeling when they "unknowingly" faced with a murderer but decided to ignore those feelings because they were not founded on logic.

          EDIT: Actually, I have to put Henderson in the next group somewhere.


          What is odd for me is that I rank him as a player with no steroid deduction. I do lower Bonds and A-Rod somewhat. I am not sure why I tend to have an impulse to rate Henderson lower in this rating of hall of fame deservedness.
          Last edited by brett; 08-31-2011, 09:16 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            1) Alexander, Pete
            2) Collins, Eddie
            3) Schmidt, Mike
            4) Anson, Cap
            5) Grove, Lefty
            6) Morgan, Joe
            7) Henderson, Rickey
            8) Charleston, Oscar
            9) Paige, Satchel
            10) Seaver, Tom
            Last edited by Jar of Flies; 08-31-2011, 07:46 PM.
            Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
            http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
              I'm having a hard time resolving where to place both Rickey Henderson and Roberto Clemente in this project. For their supporters, what pushes them into the top 15-25? For those not voting for those two this round, how far off are they for you and why?
              I don't have a list other than what I have posted so far, so I'm not sure how far off they are in my mind. When it's right, they'll be there. I believe Henderson should higher than Clemente because of his status as the greatest lead-off hitter and base stealer, but how much higher? I can't say at this point.

              It's great participating in this project though, and getting a list finally put together based on my rankings here.
              The Writer's Journey

              Comment


              • #52
                I'd like to point out this isn't America. It's the internet. Our members are from all over the world (shout-out to those Australian Brewers fans!).

                1. Grover Cleveland Alexander - 10 Points, Ballot #4 (One of the top 3 pitchers of all-time IMHO, deserves a spot in the top ten for that alone)
                2. Roberto Clemente - 9 Points, Ballot #4 (Everything stated by DX)
                3. Frank Robinson - 8 Points, Ballot#1* (One of the legends; known as one of the last two players to win the triple crown; the first black manager in MLB)
                4. Cal Ripken Jr. - 7 Points, Ballot #4 (You can call him saving baseball a myth, but there are plenty of myths about old-timers still propagated around. Plus, no recent hall of famer is near Cal's level of fame)
                5. John Montgomery Ward - 6 Points, Ballot #3 (Founded Players Union and Players League)
                6. Cap Anson - 5 Points, Ballot #3 (Greatest player of the 19th century).
                7. King Kelly - 4 Points, Ballot #3 (Huge innovator for the game. Arguably baseball's first super-star)
                8. Satchel Paige - 3 Points, Ballot #2 (Arguably the best pitcher of the Negro Leagues. One of the few negro leaguers the casual fan knows of. Pitched great in the majors over the age of 40+)
                9. Joe DiMaggio - 2 Points, Ballot #1 (The Yankee Clipper; one of the most well-known baseball players not only to casual fans, but outside of baseball as well; known just as well for his time lost to WWII & his mention in Simong & Garfunkels "Mrs. Robinson")
                10. Yogi Berra - 1 Point, Ballot #1 (Arguably the greatest catcher to play the game; Known as much for playing baseball as much as he is for his "Yogi-isms")

                Normally I wouldn't bump a player up who was not on my last ballot. However, the discussion from the last poll was good and got me thinking about Robinson's places in baseball history. I felt I was overlooking him.
                AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                AL Pennant: 1982
                NL Central Champions: 2011
                NL Wild Card: 2008

                "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by The Dude View Post
                  7. King Kelly - 4 Points, Ballot #3 (Huge innovator for the game. Arguably baseball's first super-star)
                  What innovations is Kelly responsible for? As far as Frank Robinson, if you are talking about his career AFTER his time as a player, I don't think that is really supposed to be "in play" for electing a player to the hall of fame. You can do whatever you want, but players don't get in AS PLAYERS for being close, and then doing things after their playing careers are over like managing etc. His managing should not augment his eligibility as a player. Then again, its probably impossible that any of us don't count factors like this at least somewhat.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                    My latest ranking has them way afar of the 15-25 stratosphere. Henderson is #45 and Clemente #58. Among All Time Players, of course. But i've seen you guys consider Rickey a top 25 talent. Nevertheless Clemente is plain overrated.
                    Henderson is a top 15-25 position player in every sabermetric measure I have seen. Some that have him as one of the top 3 defensive left fielders of all time have him in the top 10. He also had two huge seasons in '85 and '90 and several other great ones. I am pretty sure his 72 WAR in the 80s is tops.

                    I had Clemente around 60th a few years ago. Fairly low OB%. Not a tremendous slugger, and I wasn't really sure he was truly a great fielder. Every defensive metric I can find confirms him to have been the best defensive right fielder of the 20th century and by a solid margin. If he's an A, Kaline is about a B+. I have moved Clemente up though actually because he developed slowly as a hitter, but had a very good peak level. I think his final 10 year OPS+ was 144 and it is rare to have someone that far over his career rates at those ages. He was a good enough fielder to play a lot before he developed as a hitter or his career rates would look better, and even if he had fallen off for 2-3 final years, his career rates might have gone up a little, and he could have been in the 2600+ game range. I have moved him up now to about 40 for all position players, maybe 38 or 39.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      --Frank Robinson was a player-manager when he broke the managerial color line, so it wasn't actually after his playing career. I think all the successfull player-managers (Anson, Clarke, Chance, Frisch, Boudreau, etc) deserve a bump for that. Robinson wasn't especially successfull as a player-manager, but he was historic in that role.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        1) Frank Robinson
                        2) Cap Anson
                        3) Satchel Paige
                        4) Mike Schmidt
                        5) Yogi Berra
                        6) Tom Seaver
                        7) Rickey Henderson
                        8) Joe Morgan
                        9) Johnny Bench
                        10) Lefty Grove

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by brett View Post
                          What innovations is Kelly responsible for? As far as Frank Robinson, if you are talking about his career AFTER his time as a player, I don't think that is really supposed to be "in play" for electing a player to the hall of fame. You can do whatever you want, but players don't get in AS PLAYERS for being close, and then doing things after their playing careers are over like managing etc. His managing should not augment his eligibility as a player. Then again, its probably impossible that any of us don't count factors like this at least somewhat.
                          Not innovations, or an answer to your question, but here's one of the reasons why King Kelly was a larger than life character even in his playing days:

                          http://research.sabr.org/journals/on...-costume-caper

                          In terms of actual innovations, Kelly is credited with popularizing the hook slide. He was also very adept at manipulating umpires (cutting bases when the umpire wasn't looking, etc...). He also was a true star in his day and this song helped immortalize him in his day:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTDGyJ-C5Zo

                          All those give him a bump in my book.

                          EDIT: I should clarify this point, by stating that in a strict ranking sense, there is no way I would rank King Kelly ahead of Cap Anson in his own era, but in a project that encourages us to look at anecdotal evidence and measure the impact of a player in his given era and in the context of the game, I'm more inclined to rank Kelly over Anson.
                          Last edited by jjpm74; 08-31-2011, 10:08 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by brett View Post
                            What innovations is Kelly responsible for? As far as Frank Robinson, if you are talking about his career AFTER his time as a player, I don't think that is really supposed to be "in play" for electing a player to the hall of fame. You can do whatever you want, but players don't get in AS PLAYERS for being close, and then doing things after their playing careers are over like managing etc. His managing should not augment his eligibility as a player. Then again, its probably impossible that any of us don't count factors like this at least somewhat.
                            Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                            --Frank Robinson was a player-manager when he broke the managerial color line, so it wasn't actually after his playing career. I think all the successfull player-managers (Anson, Clarke, Chance, Frisch, Boudreau, etc) deserve a bump for that. Robinson wasn't especially successfull as a player-manager, but he was historic in that role.
                            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                            Not innovations, or an answer to your question, but here's one of the reasons why King Kelly was a larger than life character even in his playing days:

                            http://research.sabr.org/journals/on...-costume-caper

                            In terms of actual innovations, Kelly is credited with popularizing the hook slide. He was also very adept at manipulating umpires (cutting bases when the umpire wasn't looking, etc...). He also was a true star in his day and this song helped immortalize him in his day:

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTDGyJ-C5Zo

                            All those give him a bump in my book.
                            Brett, my angle in this project is to elect players as best as I can fathom in an order that reflects their playing ability, contributions to the game in whatever aspect, and possibly most importantly, fame.

                            Originally posted by DoubleX
                            Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."
                            1.While the eligibility is only limited to people inducted as players, it says nothing about how we consider what they did outside of their playing careers. Now, I'm not gonna rank someone high because he had a great vaudeville act. However, I do think things like Robinson's managerial breakthrough and Clemente's tragic death in a humanitarian effort do increase their fame a great deal. I can't help that it increases their fame, it just does. As it is the hall of fame, and I'm voting partly based on fame, I consider being the first black manager as famous.

                            2. Mark, you are right about Robinson being a player-manager, and one of the last too (Pete Rose?). They each deserve some sort of bump.

                            3.JJPM, you are right (great link by the way). I believe he also popularized the hit-and-run too.
                            AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                            AL Pennant: 1982
                            NL Central Champions: 2011
                            NL Wild Card: 2008

                            "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              1. Clemente
                              2. DiMaggio
                              3. Paige
                              4. GC Alexander
                              5. Mathewson
                              6. Frank Robinson
                              7. Rickey Henderson
                              8. Warren Spahn
                              9. Tom Seaver
                              10. Johnny Bench
                              3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                It's perplexing why Christy Mathewson is appearing so lowly on so many ballots (or not on ballots at all). For the first few decades of the 1900s, he was hands down the best NL pitcher, and possibly the best MLB pitcher.

                                From 1900 to 1920, he was at the top of the MLB list in:

                                Wins (led by nearly 50)
                                Innings pitched
                                Decisions
                                Games
                                Games started
                                Complete games
                                Batters faced

                                He even had the fourth most saves in the NL in that span. He was third in the big leagues in winning percentage (quite a feat for someone who pitched as long as he did), led the NL in shutouts, K/BB ratio, WAR and strikeouts (by nearly a thousand), was third in the NL in ERA and ERA+ among pitchers with at least 300 decisions and second in BB/9 IP and WHIP.

                                It should be noted that Mordecai Brown was a notch ahead of him in ERA and ERA+, so he perhaps he should start finding his way onto some of our lists soon too.

                                Comment

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