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Ranking the HoF Players: 101-105

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  • Ranking the HoF Players: 101-105

    Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

    Election Format: Voters will submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
    - Tiebreakers: In the event of a tie among players at the end of an election, the first tiebreaker will be the total number of ballot appearance in that election. The second tiebreaker will be total number of points irrespective of number of ballots. The third tiebreaker will be the number first place votes in that election. In the event that there remains a tie for the fifth and final spot in an election, there will be a three day run-off by poll. Players that lose in a run-off will slot into the next ranking spot.

    Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Willie Mays
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Walter Johnson
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Cy Young
    10) Stan Musial
    11) Mickey Mantle
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Jackie Robinson
    14) Tris Speaker
    15) Josh Gibson
    16) Eddie Collins
    17) Satchel Paige
    18) Grover Alexander
    19) Frank Robinson
    20) Joe DiMaggio
    21) Oscar Charleston
    22) Mike Schmidt
    23) Lefty Grove
    24) Tom Seaver
    25) Cap Anson
    26) Christy Mathewson
    27) Rickey Henderson
    28) Jimmie Foxx
    29) Nap Lajoie
    30) Joe Morgan
    31) Johnny Bench
    32) Mel Ott
    33) Warren Spahn
    34) Yogi Berra
    35) Cal Ripken
    36) George Brett
    37) Pop Lloyd
    38) Kid Nichols
    39) Eddie Mathews
    40) Bob Feller
    41) Roberto Clemente
    42) Bob Gibson
    43) Joe Williams
    44) Carl Yastrzemski
    45) Hank Greenberg
    46) Dan Brouthers
    47) Steve Carlton
    48) Sandy Koufax
    49) Ed Delahanty
    50) Johnny Mize
    51) Al Kaline
    52) Turkey Stearnes
    53) Wade Boggs
    54) Charlie Gehringer
    55) Mickey Cochrane
    56) Reggie Jackson
    57) Arky Vaughan
    58) Roger Connor
    59) Nolan Ryan
    60) Robin Yount
    61) Rod Carew
    62) Tony Gwynn
    63) Carl Hubbell
    64) Roy Campanella
    65) Ernie Banks
    66) Sam Crawford
    67) Duke Snider
    68) George Davis
    69) King Kelly
    70) John Ward
    71) Eddie Murray
    72) Bullet Rogan
    73) Harmon Killebrew
    74) Buck Ewing
    75) Billy Hamilton
    76) Gaylord Perry
    77) Carlton Fisk
    78) Paul Waner
    79) Juan Marichal
    80) Al Simmons
    81) John Clarkson
    82) Martin Dihigo
    83) Robin Roberts
    84) Willie McCovey
    85) Frankie Frisch
    86) Phil Niekro
    87) Eddie Plank
    88) Gary Carter
    89) Whitey Ford
    90) Tim Keefe
    91) Mordecai Brown
    92) Luke Appling
    93) Brooks Robinson
    94) Ferguson Jenkins
    95) Willie Stargell
    96) Frank Baker
    97) Jim Palmer
    98) Joe Cronin
    99) Bill Dickey
    100) Jesse Burkett

    Master List
    [B][U]Player				BBF Rank[/U][/B]
    Hank Aaron			5
    Grover Alexander		18
    Roberto Alomar
    Cap Anson			25
    Luis Aparicio
    Luke Appling			92
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker			96
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks			65
    Jake Beckley
    Cool Papa Bell
    Johnny Bench			31
    Chief Bender
    Yogi Berra			34
    Bert Blyleven
    Wade Boggs			53
    Jim Bottomley
    Lou Boudreau
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett			36
    Lou Brock
    Dan Brouthers			46
    Mordecai Brown			91
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett			100
    Roy Campanella			64
    Rod Carew			61
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton			47
    Gary Carter			88
    Orlando Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston		21
    Jack Chesbro
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson			81
    Roberto Clemente		41
    Ty Cobb				3
    Mickey Cochrane			55
    Eddie Collins			16
    Jimmy Collins
    Earle Combs
    Roger Connor			58
    Andy Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford			66
    Joe Cronin			98
    Kiki Cuyler
    Ray Dandridge
    George Davis			68
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty			49
    Bill Dickey			99
    Martin Dihigo			82
    Joe DiMaggio			20
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Hugh Duffy
    Dennis Eckersley
    Johnny Evers
    Buck Ewing			74
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller			40
    Rick Ferrell
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk			77
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford			89
    Bill Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx			28
    Frankie Frisch			85
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig			8
    Charlie Gehringer		54
    Bob Gibson			42
    Josh Gibson			15
    Lefty Gomez
    Joe Gordon
    Goose Goslin
    Rich Gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg			45
    Burleigh Grimes
    Lefty Grove			23
    Tony Gwynn			62
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Billy Hamilton			75
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Rickey Henderson		27
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Harry Hooper
    Rogers Hornsby			12
    Waite Hoyt
    Carl Hubbell			63
    Catfish Hunter
    Monte Irvin
    Reggie Jackson			56
    Travis Jackson	
    Ferguson Jenkins		94
    Hugh Jennings
    Judy Johnson
    Walter Johnson			7
    Addie Joss
    Al Kaline			51
    Tim Keefe			90
    Willie Keeler
    George Kell
    Joe Kelley
    George Kelly
    King Kelly			69
    Harmon Killebrew		73
    Ralph Kiner
    Chuck Klein
    Sandy Koufax			48
    Nap Lajoie			29
    Tony Lazzeri
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard
    Freddie Lindstrom
    Pop Lloyd			37
    Ernie Lombard
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Mickey Mantle			11
    Heinie Manush
    Rabbit Maranville
    Juan Marichal			79
    Rube Marquard
    Eddie Mathews			39
    Christy Mathewson		26
    Willie Mays			2
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Willie McCovey			84
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Jose Mendez
    Johnny Mize			50
    Paul Molitor
    Joe Morgan			30
    Eddie Murray			71
    Stan Musial			10
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols			38
    Phil Niekro			86
    Jim O’Rourke
    Mel Ott				32
    Satchel Paige			17
    Jim Palmer			97
    Herb Pennock
    Tony Perez
    Gaylord Perry			76
    Eddie Plank			87
    Kirby Puckett
    Charles Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Jim Rice
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken			35
    Eppa Rixey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts			83
    Brooks Robinson			93
    Frank Robinson			19
    Jackie Robinson			13
    Bullet Rogan			72
    Edd Roush
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth			1
    Nolan Ryan			59
    Ryne Sandberg
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Ray Schalk
    Mike Schmidt			22
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver			24
    Joe Sewell
    Al Simmons			80
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith
    Duke Snider			67
    Warren Spahn			33
    Tris Speaker			14
    Willie Stargell			95
    Turkey Stearnes			52
    Bruce Sutter
    Mule Suttles
    Don Sutton
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan			57
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner			6
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner			78
    John Ward			70
    Mickey Welch
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Joe Williams			43
    Ted Williams			4
    Vic Willis
    Hack Wilson
    Jud Wilson
    Dave Winfield
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski		44
    Cy Young			9
    Ross Youngs
    Robin Yount			60
    Ranking by Primary Position
    Catcher (9): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99)

    First Base (10): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84)

    Second Base (8): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85)

    Shortstop (10): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98)

    Third Base (6): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96)

    Left Field (8): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100)

    Center Field (9): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75)

    Right Field (11): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78)

    Pitcher (29): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97)

    Ranking by Primary Decade
    1880s (8): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90)

    1890s (6): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100)

    1900 (6): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91)

    1910s (8): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96)

    1920s (6): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85)

    1930s (16): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99)

    1940s (6): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92)

    1950s (9): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89)

    1960s (11): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93)

    1970s (14): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97)

    1980s (8): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88)

    1990s (1): Tony Gwynn (62)

    Links to Previous Elections
    Election 1-5
    Election 6-10
    Election 11-15
    Election 16-20
    Election 21- 25
    Election 26-30
    Election 31-35
    Election 36-40 (41)
    Election 42-45
    Election 46-50
    Election 51-55
    Election 56-60
    Election 61-65
    Election 65-70
    Election 71-75
    Election 75-80 (81)
    Election 82-85
    Election 86-90
    Election 91-95
    Election 96-100

  • #2
    1) Buck Leonard
    2) Harry Heilmann
    3) Ed Walsh
    4) Bert Blyleven
    5) Gabby Hartnett
    6) Hoyt Wilhelm
    7) Fred Clarke
    8) Jim O'Rourke
    9) Dave Winfield
    10) Ron Santo

    Just missed: Roberto Alomar, Lou Boudreau, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Dazzy Vance, Billy Williams
    Last edited by DoubleX; 01-04-2012, 09:36 AM.


    • #3
      1) Dennis Eckersley (10)
      2) Lou Brock (9)
      3) Pud Galvin (8)
      4) Harry Heilmann (7)
      5) Larry Doby (6)
      6) Fred Clarke (5)
      7) Dave Winfield (4)
      8) Ed Walsh (3)
      9) Old Hoss Radbourn (2)
      10) Hoyt Wilhelm (1)


      • #4
        1. Buck Leonard - 10
        2. Ozzie Smith - 9
        3. Harry Heilmann - 8
        4. George Sisler - 7
        5. Mule Suttles - 6
        6. Willie Keeler - 5
        7. Gabby Hartnett - 4
        8. Fred Clarke - 3
        9. Hoss Radbourne - 2
        10. Dave Winfield - 1

        coming sooner or later: Terry, Molitor, Galvin, Mackey, Irvin, O'Rourke


        • #5
          (Barry Larkin)
          1. Hoyt Wilhelm
          2. Ozzie Smith
          3. Fred Clarke
          4. Jim O'Rourke
          5. Jud Wilson
          6. Joe Medwick
          7. Mule Suttles
          8. Buck Leonard
          9. Willie Wells
          10. Dave Winfield

          ***Please note that if Barry Larkin is elected to the HOF, I would place him at #1 on this current list. Since the anouncement for this year's HOFers is this coming Monday, if he is elected, please insert him at #1 on my ballot and move everyone else down 1 as I will be out of town part of next week with limited Internet access. The potential election of Jeff Bagwell or Jack Morris would not affect my current balot in any way.


          • #6
            Tougher sledding here. I'm with jjpm- if Larkin is elected next week and this portion of the election is still open, Barry Larkin is my number 1 choice.

            1. Hoyt Wilhelm
            2. Fred Clarke
            3. Billy Williams- doesn't seem to be on anybody's radar
            4. Larry Doby- deserves a kickup for his AL groundbreaking work
            5. Ed Walsh
            6. Buck Leonard
            7. Harry Heilmann
            8. Gabby Hartnett
            9. Old Hoss Radbourne
            10. Ryne Sandberg- I guess I'm alone here, too


            • #7
              The BBWAA results come out next Monday, so this election will be open for a day after that if anyone wants to vote for Larkin.

              In the meantime, I would suggest the following if you want to vote for Larkin (or anyone on the current ballot who has a realistic shot of election) - list the 10 players you would vote for as of today and note Larkin where you would vote for him if he's elected (as JJPM and BigRon have done). If he's elected, I'll then just bump your 10th player out and count your vote for Larkin.


              • #8
                1. Bert Blyleven
                2. Jud Wilson
                3. Monte Irvin
                4. Mule Suttles
                5. Ron Santo
                6. Harry Heilmann
                7. Old Hoss Radbourn
                8. Cristobal Torriente
                9. Joe Gordon
                10. Pee Wee Reese
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                  3. Billy Williams- doesn't seem to be on anybody's radar
                  10. Ryne Sandberg- I guess I'm alone here, too
                  I was going thru and there were tons of guys it seemed that I felt I was slighting. As for Sandberg I haven't even gotten aroudn to Biggio or Alomar yet. It's tough 10 spots 9 positions. I saw Jimmy Collins, even Traynor for his status as (now seen as undeserved) GOAT 3B pre-Brooks Robinson, Kiner, the pitchers liste dthat I don't list etc.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                    I was going thru and there were tons of guys it seemed that I felt I was slighting. As for Sandberg I haven't even gotten aroudn to Biggio or Alomar yet. It's tough 10 spots 9 positions. I saw Jimmy Collins, even Traynor for his status as (now seen as undeserved) GOAT 3B pre-Brooks Robinson, Kiner, the pitchers liste dthat I don't list etc.
                    Yeah, it's getting tough. I see Sandberg and Alomar as close to equal, though different types of players. Biggio's not in yet, so he's ignored.


                    • #11
                      Pretty happy overall with our top 100, though like most I'm sure I had them ordered a little differently. On we go:

                      1. Fred Clarke (10)
                      2. Ed Walsh (9)
                      3. Willie Wells (8)
                      4. Mule Suttles (7)
                      5. Bert Blyleven (6)
                      6. Cristobal Torriente (5)
                      7. Buck Leonard (4)
                      8. Gabby Hartnett (3)
                      9. Paul Molitor (2)
                      10. Cool Papa Bell (1)
                      Ryne Sandberg
                      (Barry Larkin)
                      Jud Wilson
                      Roberto Alomar
                      Dave Winfield
                      Ron Santo
                      George Sisler
                      Ozzie Smith
                      Rube Waddell
                      Amos Rusie


                      • #12
                        Interesting that our most prolific decade is the 1930s, with 16 players attributed to it... while we only have 6 players each assigned to the 1920s and 1940s. Only three of the 20s players (Ruth, Hornsby, Frisch) played any Major League baseball. The 40s can be attributed somewhat to World War II, but what gives with the 20s?
                        Last edited by J W; 01-03-2012, 11:42 AM.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by J W View Post
                          Interesting that our most prolific decade is the 1930s, with 16 players attributed to it... while we only have 6 players each assigned to the 1920s and 1940s. Only three of the 20s players (Ruth, Hornsby, Frisch) played any Major League baseball. The 40s can be attributed somewhat to World War II, but what gives with the 20s?
                          It might be just a timing issue many of the 30s players seem to have come up @ 1925: Gehrig, Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Waner, Grove among the MLB players.


                          • #14
                            Just out of curiosity, why is Gwynn assigned to the 90s and Ripken assigned to the 80s? Ripken's biggest claim to fame came in the 1990s.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                              Just out of curiosity, why is Gwynn assigned to the 90s and Ripken assigned to the 80s? Ripken's biggest claim to fame came in the 1990s.
                              Those are two of the players I always struggle with the most. It can be a difficult and often arbitrary exercise to force players into one decade as players peaks often span decades rather than being conveniently associated with one. But when having to pick one decade over another for certain players, tough and subjective calls are sometimes made.

                              With Ripken, he did play the entire decade of the 90s (whereas 1982 was his "rookie" season), he had his best season and won an MVP in '91 (though he also won one in the 80s as well as a ROTY), and he set the consecutive games record and established his legend. However, he was a significantly better player in the 1980s than he was in the 1990s for the most part, and when we think of Ripken as an all time great shortstop, we're largely thinking of the Ripken of the '80s. In particular, he put up a 123 OPS+ and 47.8 WAR in the 80s against a 107 OPS+ and 41.3 WAR in the 90s, and the raw WAR difference doesn't take into account that Ripken essentially played two more full seasons in the 90s. After that great '91 season, Ripken was essentially a player in decline for much of the rest of his career, posting just a 99 OPS+ and 23.3 WAR for the rest of the decade.

                              Gwynn's tougher, but unlike Ripken, he didn't have one decade where he was clearly a significantly superior player. During the 80s, which started with a brief stint in 1982 for Gwynn, he posted a 132 OPS+, a 35.2 WAR, and won four batting titles. During the 90s, for which he played the entire decade, he posted a 133 OPS+, a 32.3 WAR, and also won four batting titles. An argument could definitely be made that Gwynn was an all around better player during the 80s (which is reflected in WAR), but he did play the entire decade of the 90s at a high level (unlike Ripken), and when people think of Gwynn, they tend to think of him at his base hitting best which came during the five year period from 1993-1997 when he never hit below .353 and toyed with .400 in the strike-shortened year (people often have to be reminded that the more robust Gwynn of the 90s was preceded by a quite athletic Gwynn in the 80s who could run and field quite well).

                              Other players I pause quite a bit on with respect to decade designation:

                              Luke Appling - 30s vs 40s
                              Ernie Banks - 50s vs 60s
                              Carlton Fisk - 70s vs 80s
                              Mickey Mantle - 50s vs 60s
                              Stan Musial - 40s vs 50s
                              Kirby Puckett (when we get to him) - 80s vs 90s
                              Nolan Ryan - 70s vs 80s
                              Cy Young - 1890s vs 1900s


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