Ranking the HoF Players: 136-140

[jjpm74]

1. Goose Gossage
2. Frank Chance
3. Max Carey
4. Pud Galvin
5. Kirby Puckett
6. Phil Rizzuto
7. Joe Gordon
8. Johnny Evers
9. Earl Averill
10. Hal Newhouser

[jjpm74]

I see Pee Wee Reese currently has more attention than Phil Rizzuto. Rizzuto was by far the more famous of the two NY shortstops. Rizzuto also missed the prime of his career serving his country during WWII for those looking more at WAR than notoriety.

[J W]

Some people think Dean is a weak HOFer also. But Dean was the greatest pitcher of his day for 2 years, Averill was never close to being the greatest player of his day. Dean also had other attributes like winning a championship when he shut out Detroit on one game rest in game 7 of the 1934 WS, and his unique colorful personality. He was much more "famous" than Averill.

The point is, we're in the area now where none of the options are all that special. I happen to think Averill is the best CF candidate on the board, at least from MLB. Quick & dirty comparison on who will be coming up at CF:

Ashburn - 9736 PA, 111 OPS+, very good glove
Averill - 7221 PA, 133 OPS+, mediocre glove
Carey - 10770 PA, 107 OPS+, very good glove
Puckett - 7831 PA, 124 OPS+, debatable glove
Roush - 8155 PA, 126 OPS+, average glove

I can see these five in just about any order. The only point of contention for me would be placing Puckett ahead of Averill... lo, much like Lou Brock, a few people have Puckett rated very high on their ballot, so Puckett may be the first selected from this group even though he may be the worst player.

[PVNICK]

I see Pee Wee Reese currently has more attention than Phil Rizzuto. Rizzuto was by far the more famous of the two NY shortstops. Rizzuto also missed the prime of his career serving his country during WWII for those looking more at WAR than notoriety.

Didn't Reese miss WWII as well? As for the most famous, I wasn't around when they played, after with the PIX broadcasts (and I guess Paradise by the Dashboard Light) Rizzuto was still in the public eye or at least in the NY Metropolitan area.

[BigRon]

I see Pee Wee Reese currently has more attention than Phil Rizzuto. Rizzuto was by far the more famous of the two NY shortstops. Rizzuto also missed the prime of his career serving his country during WWII for those looking more at WAR than notoriety.

Not sure where you got the idea that Rizzuto was more famous. Both were extremely well known. Maybe an old-time New Yorker/Brooklynite should weigh in- Ralph, or somebody?

Also, Reese and Rizzuto both missed 3 full seasons to WW2. Reese had been a regular for 2 1/2 seasons, Rizzuto 2 seasons before they entered the military.

Personally, I give the edge to Reese. Fielded as well, ran as well, had more power, lasted longer.

[jalbright]

Not sure where you got the idea that Rizzuto was more famous. Both were extremely well known. Maybe an old-time New Yorker/Brooklynite should weigh in- Ralph, or somebody?

Also, Reese and Rizzuto both missed 3 full seasons to WW2. Reese had been a regular for 2 1/2 seasons, Rizzuto 2 seasons before they entered the military.

Personally, I give the edge to Reese. Fielded as well, ran as well, had more power, lasted longer.

Reese had 2752 more PA, and while he loses in BA .269 to .273, he wins in OBP .366 to .351, and wins in slg pct .377 to .355. Reese wins WAR 66.7 to 41.8. Rizzuto's fame from his broadcasting career doesn't come close to balancing those edges out.

[dgarza]

"VOTE FOR RIZZUTO" doesn't really help his case.

I don't know who was the more famous during their playing days. From today's standpoint, I see Reese with 10 ASGs and Rizzuto with 5.

I think today, Reese is seen in a more positive light. Much of this comes from his relationship with Jackie Robinson. There was a kids' book about this that came out, I think in the 90s and was well recieved. "REESE" also comes up as a crossword answer at times.

Rizzuto feels more like a "character" in today. Perhaps that's unfair, but I think it's kinda true.

[dgarza]

For the sake of this project, I generally tend to see these CFers grouped in these waves:

Current wave, could be listed at any time :
Hugh Duffy, Richie Ashburn, Kirby Puckett

2nd wave, another round or two :
Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell

3rd wave, in 2-3 rounds :
nobody

4th wave :
Hack Wilson, Max Carey

5th wave :
Edd Roush, Pete Hill (he's CFer, right?)

Last wave :
Earle Combs, Lloyd Waner

[SavoyBG]

The point is, we're in the area now where none of the options are all that special. I happen to think Averill is the best CF candidate on the board, at least from MLB. Quick & dirty comparison on who will be coming up at CF:

Ashburn - 9736 PA, 111 OPS+, very good glove
Averill - 7221 PA, 133 OPS+, mediocre glove
Carey - 10770 PA, 107 OPS+, very good glove
Puckett - 7831 PA, 124 OPS+, debatable glove
Roush - 8155 PA, 126 OPS+, average glove

I can see these five in just about any order. The only point of contention for me would be placing Puckett ahead of Averill... lo, much like Lou Brock, a few people have Puckett rated very high on their ballot, so Puckett may be the first selected from this group even though he may be the worst player.

Carey is #1 on my current ballot. For this project I'd rank them:

Carey
Ashburn
Puckett
Averill
Roush

[J W]

Re: shortstops

I agree with Jim. Reese and Rizzuto are direct comparables, and the edge absolutely goes to Reese on the stats. Pee Wee and Lou Boudreau are two of the top ten names left on the board IMO. I'm surprised Boudreau has fallen this far.

[J W]

Wow, no love for Edd Roush. I didn't expect anyone to rank Hack Wilson ahead of him. Though I suppose Wilson can be viewed as a more extreme version of Averill... even less playing time, an even better bat and a universally regarded bad glove.

Hugh Duffy played more time at corner OF than CF, which IMO puts him in an OF hybrid category with Andre Dawson (and non-HOFers like Reggie Smith). Unlike Dawson and Smith, Duffy spent his CF time in the middle of his career... which leads me to the question: was he an excellent corner OF glove who experimentally moved to CF, then moved back when the glove didn't translate as well?

Also, why Puckett over Averill? Averill's bat was definitely better and Puckett has only 610 PA on him through longer 162-game seasons. Averill has three top-5 MVP finishes, so the writers at least respected him. There are three things I can think of to rank Puckett higher:

- his postseason heroics
- his gold glove awards
- being more current

The first point has the most merit. Puckett rocked the '87 and '91 postseasons. But does it leapfrog him over Averill, who never really got the chance?

The second point is again debatable. Metrics say Puckett's gold glove awards are false. We know that some of them are false (Palmeiro, 1999). But Puckett won six of them. Should they all have gone elsewhere or are the metrics missing something? I believe our current metrics are not completely accurate, especially in the outfield.

The third point is the flimsiest argument. Remembering someone when they played should not affect one's vote. One good point however - Puckett played in integrated baseball. That is the same point of contention that comes up when people state Willie Mays was a better ballplayer than Babe Ruth (also when Barry Bonds was chasing the home run record in "Ruthian" fashion). Averill would slot in with the 30s crowd... a group swelled by the height of the negro leagues, leaving us to wonder how good those 30s players were. But I don't see why we should stop now after ranking Bill Terry and Dizzy Dean so highly.

[SavoyBG]

Also, why Puckett over Averill?

Some of the reasons you mentioned PLUS the way that Puckett's career ended. A fluke disease that stopped him from having better counting numbers. Plus his amazing standing with the fans and with other players around baseball. I'm not saying that Puckett was a better player than Averill, only that I think he's a more deserving HOFer for all these reasons.

[DoubleX]

Some of the reasons you mentioned PLUS the way that Puckett's career ended. A fluke disease that stopped him from having better counting numbers. Plus his amazing standing with the fans and with other players around baseball. I'm not saying that Puckett was a better player than Averill, only that I think he's a more deserving HOFer for all these reasons.

Agreed completely. There was a period where Puckett was up there with perhaps only Cal Ripken as one of the faces of the game. The fact that his career ended very suddenly due to a fluck disease while he was still playing at or near a peak level and seemingly cruising to 3000 hits gives him some "what if" benefit with many people. Lastly, the postseason heroics, defensive reptutation, and shiny batting average helped boost his stature. Advanced stats may show Puckett to have been overrated, but the fact remains that he was a huge star and that goes into the "fame" component of the Hall and separates Puckett from some of the other CFers still on the board.

[jjpm74]

Wow, no love for Edd Roush. I didn't expect anyone to rank Hack Wilson ahead of him. Though I suppose Wilson can be viewed as a more extreme version of Averill... even less playing time, an even better bat and a universally regarded bad glove.

Hugh Duffy played more time at corner OF than CF, which IMO puts him in an OF hybrid category with Andre Dawson (and non-HOFers like Reggie Smith). Unlike Dawson and Smith, Duffy spent his CF time in the middle of his career... which leads me to the question: was he an excellent corner OF glove who experimentally moved to CF, then moved back when the glove didn't translate as well?

We are at the point in the rankings in this project where we are not at the clear mistakes yet, but we are at the point where divergence of opinion is definitely going to happen.

[J W]

Well then, with Puckett getting a boost I think that should reflect favorably on Addie Joss. His death was highly publicized; they even built a monument for him. Check this out from Baseball Almanac on an impromptu All-Star game played for his benefit:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/tsn/...fit_game.shtml

The guy was a star and had the stats to back it up too. Yet while Puckett was the highest finishing holdover from the last round of voting, Joss got zero points. As jjpm said, we've got a high variance of opinion in this section, so a few #1 or #2 votes go a long way.