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**DoubleX** · 02-28-2012, 10:29 AM

1) Dazzy Vance
2) Jimmy Collins
3) Ralph Kiner
4) Pee Wee Reese
5) Goose Gossage
6) Stan Coveleski
7) Earl Averill
8) Richie Ashburn
9) Ted Lyons
10) Red Ruffing

Just missed: Roger Bresnahan, Willard Brown, Max Carey, Frank Chance, Bobby Doerr, Billy Herman, Pete Hill, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Don Sutton, Sam Thompson

**jjpm74** · 02-28-2012, 10:37 AM

1. Goose Gossage
2. Frank Chance
3. Max Carey
4. Pud Galvin
5. Phil Rizzuto
6. Johnny Evers
7. Earl Averill
8. Ralph Kiner
9. Edd Roush
10. Roger Bresnahan

In queue: Bobby Doerr, Don Sutton, Dazzy Vance, Jimmy Collins, Pee Wee Reese

**PVNICK** · 02-28-2012, 11:30 AM

1. Dazzy Vance - 10
2. Frank Chance - 9
3. Jimmy Collins - 8
4. Louis Santop - 7
5. Ted Lyons - 6
6. Edd Roush - 5
7. Ralph Kiner - 4
8. Stan Coveleski - 3
9. Sam Thompson - 2
10. Pee Wee Reese - 1

soon to be added: Mackey, Gordon, McGinnity, McPhee, Wynn, Sutton, Galvin, Averill, Ashburn, Traynor

**jalbright** · 02-28-2012, 12:06 PM

1. Pee Wee Reese
2. Hugh Jennings
3. Jim Bunning
4. Joe Kelley
5. Willard Brown
6. Ray Brown
7. Louis Santop
8. Red Ruffing
9. Biz Mackey
10. Goose Gossage

**SavoyBG** · 02-28-2012, 12:10 PM

1 - Max Carey
2 - Rich Gossage
3 - Early Wynn
4 - Ted Lyons
5 - Jimmy Collins
6 - Pie Traynor
7 - Billy Herman
8 - Sam Thompson
9 - Dazzy Vance
10 - Red Ruffuing

My next batch, in order - Bid McPhee, Louis Santop, Hughie Jennings, Jake Beckley, Roger Bresnahan, Frank Chance

**DoubleX** · 02-28-2012, 12:15 PM

The fact that we haven't elected Jimmy Collins yet brings me back to that question that's come up a few times on these boards - Did 3B, for whatever reason, just attract less star players over the course of the first 80 years or so of professional ball, or was there something inherent about the position that is hard to grasp, particularly during earlier eras when the position was much more defense oriented?

Jimmy Collins is often considered the greatest thirdbaseman of the game's first thirty years and perhaps the best of the first 80 years until around Eddie Mathews comes around in the 1950s (some might go with Stan Hack a decade earlier). One would normally think that a player that can lay a strong claim to the best at his position over a period of several decades would have been elected by now, but Collins lingers on the ballot. (As a slight aside, Frank Baker is obviously going to get a lot of consideration for being the greatest until Mathews, but Baker was more of an oddity, a great peak short career guy whose production at 3B was something of a glimpse of what would come from the best players at the position 30 years later, while Collins was more in the prototypical mold of a great 3Bman for his era and for the next few decades - strong defense, decent stick).

I suppose we can't talk about Collins without also talking about Pie Traynor. I think the consensus around here, infused by modern statistical analysis, is that Traynor was overrated, perhaps vastly overrated, though for a large chunk of the game's history, he was largely considered the best 3Bman to have played prior to Mathews and Robinson, being the first 3Bman elected to the Hall and named to various all time great teams. At what point do we consider, if at all, the great regard that was once held for Traynor's career, even if that regard has greatly wilted?

**J W** · 02-28-2012, 04:14 PM

Well, I was going to have Traynor lower but some of the recent rankings have me giving him some "fame" credit.

1. Billy Herman (10)
2. Biz Mackey (9)
3. Pee Wee Reese (8)
4. Louis Santop (7)
5. Pete Hill (6)
6. Enos Slaughter (5)
7. Stan Coveleski (4)
8. Dazzy Vance (3)
9. Frank Grant (2)
10. Ray Brown (1)
Willard Brown
Frank Chance
Earl Averill
Joe McGinnity
Jimmy Collins
Bobby Doerr
Addie Joss
Ted Lyons
Early Wynn
Pie Traynor

**J W** · 02-28-2012, 04:37 PM

I would also point out that third base as we stand has only one less player ranked than catcher, and two less players than second base.

We're in the area right now where I would be voting for several more third baseman if they were in Cooperstown. Stan Hack, John Beckwith, Ken Boyer and Heinie Groh are on par with these players in my opinion. We're going to see the hot corner lag more and more behind.

**Cowtipper** · 02-28-2012, 05:08 PM

1) Pud Galvin
2) Joe McGinnity
3) Sam Rice
4) Don Sutton
5) Joe Kelley
6) Edd Roush
7) Ralph Kiner
8) Andre Dawson
9) Max Carey
10) Early Wynn

**dgarza** · 02-29-2012, 09:15 AM

1. Sam Thompson
2. Goose Gossage
3. Chuck Klein
4. Ralph Kiner
5. Billy Herman
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Andre Dawson
8. Hugh Duffy
9. Mickey Welch
10. Pud Galvin

Soon : Early Wynn, Elmer Flick, Jim Rice, Richie Ashburn

**jjpm74** · 02-29-2012, 09:54 AM

Here are the players yet to be ranked as of last round. I bolded the players who I do not consider HOF mistakes:

Code:

Luis Aparicio
[B]Richie Ashburn
Earl Averill[/B]
[B]Dave Bancroft[/B]
[B]Jake Beckley
Chief Bender[/B]
Jim Bottomley
[B]Roger Bresnahan[/B]
Ray Brown
Willard Brown
[B]Jim Bunning
Max Carey[/B]
Orlando Cepeda
[B]Frank Chance[/B]
Jack Chesbro
[B]Jimmy Collins[/B]
Earle Combs
Andy Cooper
[B]Stan Coveleski[/B]
Kiki Cuyler
Ray Dandridge
Andre Dawson
[B]Leon Day
Bobby Doerr
Hugh Duffy
Johnny Evers
Red Faber[/B]
Rick Ferrell
Rollie Fingers
[B]Elmer Flick[/B]
Bill Foster
[B]Nellie Fox
Pud Galvin[/B]
Lefty Gomez
[B]Rich Gossage
Frank Grant[/B]
Burleigh Grimes
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
[B]Billy Herman
Pete Hill[/B]
Harry Hooper
Waite Hoyt
[B]Catfish Hunter[/B]
Travis Jackson	
[B]Hugh Jennings[/B]
Judy Johnson
Addie Joss
George Kell
[B]Joe Kelley[/B]
George Kelly
[B]Ralph Kiner[/B]
Chuck Klein
[B]Tony Lazzeri
Bob Lemon[/B]
Freddie Lindstrom
Ernie Lombardi
[B]Ted Lyons
Biz Mackey[/B]
Heinie Manush
[B]Rabbit Maranville[/B]
Rube Marquard
Bill Mazeroski
Tommy McCarthy
[B]Joe McGinnity
Bid McPhee
Jose Mendez[/B]
Herb Pennock
Tony Perez
[B]Pee Wee Reese[/B]
Jim Rice
[B]Sam Rice[/B]
Eppa Rixey
[B]Phil Rizzuto
Edd Roush
Red Ruffing
Louis Santop[/B]
Ray Schalk
Red Schoendienst
[B]Joe Sewell[/B]
[B]Enos Slaughter[/B]
Hilton Smith
[B]Bruce Sutter
Don Sutton[/B]
Ben Taylor
[B]Sam Thompson[/B]
Joe Tinker
[B]Pie Traynor
Dazzy Vance
Bobby Wallace[/B]
Lloyd Waner
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
[B]Hack Wilson
Early Wynn[/B]
Ross Youngs

Some will go sooner than others. By a rough count, there's about 50 people who are still (at least by my standards) definite HOFers. Going more conservatve, we probably have about 30-40 more players to rank before the waters start to get muddied and about 50-60 to go before we get to the real head scratchers.

**DoubleX** · 02-29-2012, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the list JJPM. I agree that we're still amid players with fairly solid HoF credentials, but we're entering the low end of that group. I think this group is quite a big one and will take us a while to get through, followed by a smaller group of borderline guys that there will be widely divergent opinions on, then finally culminating with the most questionable players, which I anticipate we'll be approaching around 200.

**J W** · 02-29-2012, 11:02 AM

Regarding jjpm's list:

- Luis Aparicio is out while both Nellie Fox and Rabbit Maranville are in? I see them as highly comparable players and I would think they would rank closely together. But why would Aparicio, who had the exact same 82 OPS+ in nearly the same PA (+/- 26), as Maranville, have a full 12.0 oWAR more than him? Is it contained in his excellent base-stealing ability?

- Ray Brown is projected to be a 270+ game winner in the majors with an ERA+ near 120. I'm surprised he is not bolded while Leon Day is; I've got Brown as the better pitcher, evidenced by his name on my ballot.

- I'm in the group that believes Catfish Hunter is one of the five worst pitchers in the Hall of Fame. The only guys I've got under him are Chesbro, Haines, Hoyt and Marquard. I've even given Herb Pennock and Andy Cooper the nod over him. Does his mystique carry him that far?

- I've already gone over Addie Joss... best ever WHIP score (0.968) and a 142 ERA+ override his short career -- one that faced more batters than Dizzy Dean and wasn't far behind Koufax or Walsh.

Other than those points, we're pretty much in agreement.

**jjpm74** · 02-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by J W View Post

Regarding jjpm's list:

- Luis Aparicio is out while both Nellie Fox and Rabbit Maranville are in? I see them as highly comparable players and I would think they would rank closely together. But why would Aparicio, who had the exact same 82 OPS+ in nearly the same PA (+/- 26), as Maranville, have a full 12.0 oWAR more than him? Is it contained in his excellent base-stealing ability?

Defensive reputation. Maranville has been called (fair or not) the best defensive player to field his position. The same is not true of Aparicio. In a project more geared towards stats, I would be more inclined to rank Aparicio ahead of Maranville. Nellie Fox is down there at #50 in my potential queue. It would be just as easy to draw the line right in front of him or a few behind him.

- Ray Brown is projected to be a 270+ game winner in the majors with an ERA+ near 120. I'm surprised he is not bolded while Leon Day is; I've got Brown as the better pitcher, evidenced by his name on my ballot.

I am at the point where I am on very shaky ground when it comes to NeL players. I know what Ray Brown's comps are. What about his reputation? I don't know much about his "fame." There's also the question of how good he really was beyond his 1937-1945 run of success with the Homestead Grays.

- I'm in the group that believes Catfish Hunter is one of the five worst pitchers in the Hall of Fame. The only guys I've got under him are Chesbro, Haines, Hoyt and Marquard. I've even given Herb Pennock and Andy Cooper the nod over him. Does his mystique carry him that far?

He is towards the bottom for me, but not a definite mistake. Again, reputation.

- I've already gone over Addie Joss... best ever WHIP score (0.968) and a 142 ERA+ override his short career -- one that faced more batters than Dizzy Dean and wasn't far behind Koufax or Walsh.

My main issue with Joss is why him and not Youngs? Both had careers cut tragically short and both were on a HOF path when that happened.

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Ranking the HoF Players: 141-145

Ranking the HoF Players: 141-145

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