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Ranking the HoF Players: 141-145

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  • Ranking the HoF Players: 141-145

    Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

    Election Format: Voters will submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
    - Tiebreakers: In the event of a tie among players at the end of an election, the first tiebreaker will be the total number of ballot appearance in that election. The second tiebreaker will be total number of points irrespective of number of ballots. The third tiebreaker will be the number first place votes in that election. In the event that there remains a tie for the fifth and final spot in an election, there will be a three day run-off by poll. Players that lose in a run-off will slot into the next ranking spot.

    Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Willie Mays
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Walter Johnson
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Cy Young
    10) Stan Musial
    11) Mickey Mantle
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Jackie Robinson
    14) Tris Speaker
    15) Josh Gibson
    16) Eddie Collins
    17) Satchel Paige
    18) Grover Alexander
    19) Frank Robinson
    20) Joe DiMaggio
    21) Oscar Charleston
    22) Mike Schmidt
    23) Lefty Grove
    24) Tom Seaver
    25) Cap Anson
    26) Christy Mathewson
    27) Rickey Henderson
    28) Jimmie Foxx
    29) Nap Lajoie
    30) Joe Morgan
    31) Johnny Bench
    32) Mel Ott
    33) Warren Spahn
    34) Yogi Berra
    35) Cal Ripken
    36) George Brett
    37) Pop Lloyd
    38) Kid Nichols
    39) Eddie Mathews
    40) Bob Feller
    41) Roberto Clemente
    42) Bob Gibson
    43) Joe Williams
    44) Carl Yastrzemski
    45) Hank Greenberg
    46) Dan Brouthers
    47) Steve Carlton
    48) Sandy Koufax
    49) Ed Delahanty
    50) Johnny Mize
    51) Al Kaline
    52) Turkey Stearnes
    53) Wade Boggs
    54) Charlie Gehringer
    55) Mickey Cochrane
    56) Reggie Jackson
    57) Arky Vaughan
    58) Roger Connor
    59) Nolan Ryan
    ---Top 25% Cutoff---
    60) Robin Yount
    61) Rod Carew
    62) Tony Gwynn
    63) Carl Hubbell
    64) Roy Campanella
    65) Ernie Banks
    66) Sam Crawford
    67) Duke Snider
    68) George Davis
    69) King Kelly
    70) John Ward
    71) Eddie Murray
    72) Bullet Rogan
    73) Harmon Killebrew
    74) Buck Ewing
    75) Billy Hamilton
    76) Gaylord Perry
    77) Carlton Fisk
    78) Paul Waner
    79) Juan Marichal
    80) Al Simmons
    81) John Clarkson
    82) Martin Dihigo
    83) Robin Roberts
    84) Willie McCovey
    85) Frankie Frisch
    86) Phil Niekro
    87) Eddie Plank
    88) Gary Carter
    89) Whitey Ford
    90) Tim Keefe
    91) Mordecai Brown
    92) Luke Appling
    93) Brooks Robinson
    94) Ferguson Jenkins
    95) Willie Stargell
    96) Frank Baker
    97) Jim Palmer
    98) Joe Cronin
    99) Bill Dickey
    100) Jesse Burkett
    101) Harry Heilmann
    102) Fred Clarke
    103) Buck Leonard
    104) Hoyt Wilhelm
    105) Ed Walsh
    106) Bert Blyleven
    107) Barry Larkin
    108) Gabby Hartnett
    109) Dave Winfield
    110) George Sisler
    111) Mule Suttles
    112) Joe Medwick
    113) Jim O'Rourke
    114) Jud Wilson
    115) Ozzie Smith
    116) Paul Molitor
    117) Charles Radbourn
    118) Monte Irvin
    ---Top 50% Cutoff---
    119) Ryne Sandberg
    120) Roberto Alomar
    121) Ron Santo
    122) Billy Williams
    123) Willie Keeler
    124) Willie Wells
    125) Cristobal Torriente
    126) Dennis Eckersley
    127) Zack Wheat
    128) Larry Doby
    129) Amos Rusie
    130) Goose Goslin
    131) Bill Terry
    132) Don Drysdale
    133) Dizzy Dean
    134) Lou Brock
    135) Rube Waddell
    136) Cool Papa Bell
    137) Hal Newhouser
    138) Joe Gordon
    139) Kirby Puckett
    140) Lou Boudreau

    Master List
    [B][U]Player				BBF Rank[/U][/B]
    Hank Aaron			5
    Grover Alexander		18
    Roberto Alomar			120
    Cap Anson			25
    Luis Aparicio
    Luke Appling			92
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker			96
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks			65
    Jake Beckley
    Cool Papa Bell			136
    Johnny Bench			31
    Chief Bender
    Yogi Berra			34
    Bert Blyleven			106
    Wade Boggs			53
    Jim Bottomley
    Lou Boudreau			140
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett			36
    Lou Brock			134
    Dan Brouthers			46
    Mordecai Brown			91
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett			100
    Roy Campanella			64
    Rod Carew			61
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton			47
    Gary Carter			88
    Orlando Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston		21
    Jack Chesbro
    Fred Clarke			102
    John Clarkson			81
    Roberto Clemente		41
    Ty Cobb				3
    Mickey Cochrane			55
    Eddie Collins			16
    Jimmy Collins
    Earle Combs
    Roger Connor			58
    Andy Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford			66
    Joe Cronin			98
    Kiki Cuyler
    Ray Dandridge
    George Davis			68
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean			133
    Ed Delahanty			49
    Bill Dickey			99
    Martin Dihigo			82
    Joe DiMaggio			20
    Larry Doby			128
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale			132
    Hugh Duffy
    Dennis Eckersley		126
    Johnny Evers
    Buck Ewing			74
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller			40
    Rick Ferrell
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk			77
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford			89
    Bill Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx			28
    Frankie Frisch			85
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig			8
    Charlie Gehringer		54
    Bob Gibson			42
    Josh Gibson			15
    Lefty Gomez
    Joe Gordon			138
    Goose Goslin			130
    Rich Gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg			45
    Burleigh Grimes
    Lefty Grove			23
    Tony Gwynn			62
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Billy Hamilton			75
    Gabby Hartnett			108
    Harry Heilmann			101
    Rickey Henderson		27
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Harry Hooper
    Rogers Hornsby			12
    Waite Hoyt
    Carl Hubbell			63
    Catfish Hunter
    Monte Irvin			118
    Reggie Jackson			56
    Travis Jackson	
    Ferguson Jenkins		94
    Hugh Jennings
    Judy Johnson
    Walter Johnson			7
    Addie Joss
    Al Kaline			51
    Tim Keefe			90
    Willie Keeler			123
    George Kell
    Joe Kelley
    George Kelly
    King Kelly			69
    Harmon Killebrew		73
    Ralph Kiner
    Chuck Klein
    Sandy Koufax			48
    Nap Lajoie			29
    Barry Larkin			107
    Tony Lazzeri
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard			103
    Freddie Lindstrom
    Pop Lloyd			37
    Ernie Lombardi
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Mickey Mantle			11
    Heinie Manush
    Rabbit Maranville
    Juan Marichal			79
    Rube Marquard
    Eddie Mathews			39
    Christy Mathewson		26
    Willie Mays			2
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Willie McCovey			84
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick			112
    Jose Mendez
    Johnny Mize			50
    Paul Molitor			116
    Joe Morgan			30
    Eddie Murray			71
    Stan Musial			10
    Hal Newhouser			137
    Kid Nichols			38
    Phil Niekro			86
    Jim O’Rourke			113
    Mel Ott				32
    Satchel Paige			17
    Jim Palmer			97
    Herb Pennock
    Tony Perez
    Gaylord Perry			76
    Eddie Plank			87
    Kirby Puckett			139
    Charles Radbourn		117
    Pee Wee Reese
    Jim Rice
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken			35
    Eppa Rixey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts			83
    Brooks Robinson			93
    Frank Robinson			19
    Jackie Robinson			13
    Bullet Rogan			72
    Edd Roush
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie			129
    Babe Ruth			1
    Nolan Ryan			59
    Ryne Sandberg			119
    Ron Santo			121
    Louis Santop
    Ray Schalk
    Mike Schmidt			22
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver			24
    Joe Sewell
    Al Simmons			80
    George Sisler			110
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith			115
    Duke Snider			67
    Warren Spahn			33
    Tris Speaker			14
    Willie Stargell			95
    Turkey Stearnes			52
    Bruce Sutter
    Mule Suttles			111
    Don Sutton
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry			131
    Sam Thompson
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente		125
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan			57
    Rube Waddell			135
    Honus Wagner			6
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh			105
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner			78
    John Ward			70
    Mickey Welch
    Willie Wells			124
    Zack Wheat			127
    Hoyt Wilhelm			104
    Billy Williams			122
    Joe Williams			43
    Ted Williams			4
    Vic Willis
    Hack Wilson
    Jud Wilson			114
    Dave Winfield			109
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski		44
    Cy Young			9
    Ross Youngs
    Robin Yount			60
    Ranking by Primary Position
    Catcher (10): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108)

    First Base (14): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131)

    Second Base (11): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120), Joe Gordon (138)

    Shortstop (14): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124), Lou Boudreau (140)

    Third Base (9): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121)

    Left Field (16): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130), Lou Brock (134)

    Center Field (13): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128), Cool Papa Bell (136), Kirby Puckett (139)

    Right Field (14): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123)

    Pitcher (39): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129), Don Drysdale (132), Dizzy Dean (133), Rube Waddell (135), Hal Newhouser (137)

    Ranking by Primary Decade
    1880s (10): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117)

    1890s (8): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129)

    1900 (8): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102), Rube Waddell (135)

    1910s (10): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127)

    1920s (10): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130)

    1930s (24): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131), Dizzy Dean (133), Cool Papa Bell (136)

    1940s (11): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118), Hal Newhouser (137), Joe Gordon (138), Lou Boudreau (140)

    1950s (10): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128)

    1960s (16): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122), Don Drysdale (132)

    1970s (16): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106), Lou Brock (134)

    1980s (14): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126)

    1990s (3): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120), Kirby Puckett (139)

    Links to Previous Elections
    Election 1-5
    Election 6-10
    Election 11-15
    Election 16-20
    Election 21- 25
    Election 26-30
    Election 31-35
    Election 36-40 (41)
    Election 42-45
    Election 46-50
    Election 51-55
    Election 56-60
    Election 61-65
    Election 65-70
    Election 71-75
    Election 75-80 (81)
    Election 82-85
    Election 86-90
    Election 91-95
    Election 96-100
    Election 101-105 (106)
    Election 107-110
    Election 111-115
    Election 116-120
    Election 121-125
    Election 126-130 (131)
    Election 132-135
    Election 136-140

  • #2
    1) Dazzy Vance
    2) Jimmy Collins
    3) Ralph Kiner
    4) Pee Wee Reese
    5) Goose Gossage
    6) Stan Coveleski
    7) Earl Averill
    8) Richie Ashburn
    9) Ted Lyons
    10) Red Ruffing

    Just missed: Roger Bresnahan, Willard Brown, Max Carey, Frank Chance, Bobby Doerr, Billy Herman, Pete Hill, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Don Sutton, Sam Thompson


    • #3
      1. Goose Gossage
      2. Frank Chance
      3. Max Carey
      4. Pud Galvin
      5. Phil Rizzuto
      6. Johnny Evers
      7. Earl Averill
      8. Ralph Kiner
      9. Edd Roush
      10. Roger Bresnahan

      In queue: Bobby Doerr, Don Sutton, Dazzy Vance, Jimmy Collins, Pee Wee Reese


      • #4
        1. Dazzy Vance - 10
        2. Frank Chance - 9
        3. Jimmy Collins - 8
        4. Louis Santop - 7
        5. Ted Lyons - 6
        6. Edd Roush - 5
        7. Ralph Kiner - 4
        8. Stan Coveleski - 3
        9. Sam Thompson - 2
        10. Pee Wee Reese - 1

        soon to be added: Mackey, Gordon, McGinnity, McPhee, Wynn, Sutton, Galvin, Averill, Ashburn, Traynor


        • #5
          1. Pee Wee Reese
          2. Hugh Jennings
          3. Jim Bunning
          4. Joe Kelley
          5. Willard Brown
          6. Ray Brown
          7. Louis Santop
          8. Red Ruffing
          9. Biz Mackey
          10. Goose Gossage
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            1 - Max Carey
            2 - Rich Gossage
            3 - Early Wynn
            4 - Ted Lyons
            5 - Jimmy Collins
            6 - Pie Traynor
            7 - Billy Herman
            8 - Sam Thompson
            9 - Dazzy Vance
            10 - Red Ruffuing

            My next batch, in order - Bid McPhee, Louis Santop, Hughie Jennings, Jake Beckley, Roger Bresnahan, Frank Chance
            Last edited by SavoyBG; 02-28-2012, 12:25 PM.


            • #7
              The fact that we haven't elected Jimmy Collins yet brings me back to that question that's come up a few times on these boards - Did 3B, for whatever reason, just attract less star players over the course of the first 80 years or so of professional ball, or was there something inherent about the position that is hard to grasp, particularly during earlier eras when the position was much more defense oriented?

              Jimmy Collins is often considered the greatest thirdbaseman of the game's first thirty years and perhaps the best of the first 80 years until around Eddie Mathews comes around in the 1950s (some might go with Stan Hack a decade earlier). One would normally think that a player that can lay a strong claim to the best at his position over a period of several decades would have been elected by now, but Collins lingers on the ballot. (As a slight aside, Frank Baker is obviously going to get a lot of consideration for being the greatest until Mathews, but Baker was more of an oddity, a great peak short career guy whose production at 3B was something of a glimpse of what would come from the best players at the position 30 years later, while Collins was more in the prototypical mold of a great 3Bman for his era and for the next few decades - strong defense, decent stick).

              I suppose we can't talk about Collins without also talking about Pie Traynor. I think the consensus around here, infused by modern statistical analysis, is that Traynor was overrated, perhaps vastly overrated, though for a large chunk of the game's history, he was largely considered the best 3Bman to have played prior to Mathews and Robinson, being the first 3Bman elected to the Hall and named to various all time great teams. At what point do we consider, if at all, the great regard that was once held for Traynor's career, even if that regard has greatly wilted?


              • #8
                Well, I was going to have Traynor lower but some of the recent rankings have me giving him some "fame" credit.

                1. Billy Herman (10)
                2. Biz Mackey (9)
                3. Pee Wee Reese (8)
                4. Louis Santop (7)
                5. Pete Hill (6)
                6. Enos Slaughter (5)
                7. Stan Coveleski (4)
                8. Dazzy Vance (3)
                9. Frank Grant (2)
                10. Ray Brown (1)
                Willard Brown
                Frank Chance
                Earl Averill
                Joe McGinnity
                Jimmy Collins
                Bobby Doerr
                Addie Joss
                Ted Lyons
                Early Wynn
                Pie Traynor


                • #9
                  I would also point out that third base as we stand has only one less player ranked than catcher, and two less players than second base.

                  We're in the area right now where I would be voting for several more third baseman if they were in Cooperstown. Stan Hack, John Beckwith, Ken Boyer and Heinie Groh are on par with these players in my opinion. We're going to see the hot corner lag more and more behind.


                  • #10
                    1) Pud Galvin
                    2) Joe McGinnity
                    3) Sam Rice
                    4) Don Sutton
                    5) Joe Kelley
                    6) Edd Roush
                    7) Ralph Kiner
                    8) Andre Dawson
                    9) Max Carey
                    10) Early Wynn


                    • #11
                      1. Sam Thompson
                      2. Goose Gossage
                      3. Chuck Klein
                      4. Ralph Kiner
                      5. Billy Herman
                      6. Orlando Cepeda
                      7. Andre Dawson
                      8. Hugh Duffy
                      9. Mickey Welch
                      10. Pud Galvin

                      Soon : Early Wynn, Elmer Flick, Jim Rice, Richie Ashburn


                      • #12
                        Here are the players yet to be ranked as of last round. I bolded the players who I do not consider HOF mistakes:

                        Luis Aparicio
                        [B]Richie Ashburn
                        Earl Averill[/B]
                        [B]Dave Bancroft[/B]
                        [B]Jake Beckley
                        Chief Bender[/B]
                        Jim Bottomley
                        [B]Roger Bresnahan[/B]
                        Ray Brown
                        Willard Brown
                        [B]Jim Bunning
                        Max Carey[/B]
                        Orlando Cepeda
                        [B]Frank Chance[/B]
                        Jack Chesbro
                        [B]Jimmy Collins[/B]
                        Earle Combs
                        Andy Cooper
                        [B]Stan Coveleski[/B]
                        Kiki Cuyler
                        Ray Dandridge
                        Andre Dawson
                        [B]Leon Day
                        Bobby Doerr
                        Hugh Duffy
                        Johnny Evers
                        Red Faber[/B]
                        Rick Ferrell
                        Rollie Fingers
                        [B]Elmer Flick[/B]
                        Bill Foster
                        [B]Nellie Fox
                        Pud Galvin[/B]
                        Lefty Gomez
                        [B]Rich Gossage
                        Frank Grant[/B]
                        Burleigh Grimes
                        Chick Hafey
                        Jesse Haines
                        [B]Billy Herman
                        Pete Hill[/B]
                        Harry Hooper
                        Waite Hoyt
                        [B]Catfish Hunter[/B]
                        Travis Jackson	
                        [B]Hugh Jennings[/B]
                        Judy Johnson
                        Addie Joss
                        George Kell
                        [B]Joe Kelley[/B]
                        George Kelly
                        [B]Ralph Kiner[/B]
                        Chuck Klein
                        [B]Tony Lazzeri
                        Bob Lemon[/B]
                        Freddie Lindstrom
                        Ernie Lombardi
                        [B]Ted Lyons
                        Biz Mackey[/B]
                        Heinie Manush
                        [B]Rabbit Maranville[/B]
                        Rube Marquard
                        Bill Mazeroski
                        Tommy McCarthy
                        [B]Joe McGinnity
                        Bid McPhee
                        Jose Mendez[/B]
                        Herb Pennock
                        Tony Perez
                        [B]Pee Wee Reese[/B]
                        Jim Rice
                        [B]Sam Rice[/B]
                        Eppa Rixey
                        [B]Phil Rizzuto
                        Edd Roush
                        Red Ruffing
                        Louis Santop[/B]
                        Ray Schalk
                        Red Schoendienst
                        [B]Joe Sewell[/B]
                        [B]Enos Slaughter[/B]
                        Hilton Smith
                        [B]Bruce Sutter
                        Don Sutton[/B]
                        Ben Taylor
                        [B]Sam Thompson[/B]
                        Joe Tinker
                        [B]Pie Traynor
                        Dazzy Vance
                        Bobby Wallace[/B]
                        Lloyd Waner
                        Mickey Welch
                        Vic Willis
                        [B]Hack Wilson
                        Early Wynn[/B]
                        Ross Youngs
                        Some will go sooner than others. By a rough count, there's about 50 people who are still (at least by my standards) definite HOFers. Going more conservatve, we probably have about 30-40 more players to rank before the waters start to get muddied and about 50-60 to go before we get to the real head scratchers.


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the list JJPM. I agree that we're still amid players with fairly solid HoF credentials, but we're entering the low end of that group. I think this group is quite a big one and will take us a while to get through, followed by a smaller group of borderline guys that there will be widely divergent opinions on, then finally culminating with the most questionable players, which I anticipate we'll be approaching around 200.


                          • #14
                            Regarding jjpm's list:

                            - Luis Aparicio is out while both Nellie Fox and Rabbit Maranville are in? I see them as highly comparable players and I would think they would rank closely together. But why would Aparicio, who had the exact same 82 OPS+ in nearly the same PA (+/- 26), as Maranville, have a full 12.0 oWAR more than him? Is it contained in his excellent base-stealing ability?

                            - Ray Brown is projected to be a 270+ game winner in the majors with an ERA+ near 120. I'm surprised he is not bolded while Leon Day is; I've got Brown as the better pitcher, evidenced by his name on my ballot.

                            - I'm in the group that believes Catfish Hunter is one of the five worst pitchers in the Hall of Fame. The only guys I've got under him are Chesbro, Haines, Hoyt and Marquard. I've even given Herb Pennock and Andy Cooper the nod over him. Does his mystique carry him that far?

                            - I've already gone over Addie Joss... best ever WHIP score (0.968) and a 142 ERA+ override his short career -- one that faced more batters than Dizzy Dean and wasn't far behind Koufax or Walsh.

                            Other than those points, we're pretty much in agreement.
                            Last edited by J W; 02-29-2012, 11:37 AM.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by J W View Post
                              Regarding jjpm's list:

                              - Luis Aparicio is out while both Nellie Fox and Rabbit Maranville are in? I see them as highly comparable players and I would think they would rank closely together. But why would Aparicio, who had the exact same 82 OPS+ in nearly the same PA (+/- 26), as Maranville, have a full 12.0 oWAR more than him? Is it contained in his excellent base-stealing ability?
                              Defensive reputation. Maranville has been called (fair or not) the best defensive player to field his position. The same is not true of Aparicio. In a project more geared towards stats, I would be more inclined to rank Aparicio ahead of Maranville. Nellie Fox is down there at #50 in my potential queue. It would be just as easy to draw the line right in front of him or a few behind him.

                              - Ray Brown is projected to be a 270+ game winner in the majors with an ERA+ near 120. I'm surprised he is not bolded while Leon Day is; I've got Brown as the better pitcher, evidenced by his name on my ballot.
                              I am at the point where I am on very shaky ground when it comes to NeL players. I know what Ray Brown's comps are. What about his reputation? I don't know much about his "fame." There's also the question of how good he really was beyond his 1937-1945 run of success with the Homestead Grays.

                              - I'm in the group that believes Catfish Hunter is one of the five worst pitchers in the Hall of Fame. The only guys I've got under him are Chesbro, Haines, Hoyt and Marquard. I've even given Herb Pennock and Andy Cooper the nod over him. Does his mystique carry him that far?
                              He is towards the bottom for me, but not a definite mistake. Again, reputation.

                              - I've already gone over Addie Joss... best ever WHIP score (0.968) and a 142 ERA+ override his short career -- one that faced more batters than Dizzy Dean and wasn't far behind Koufax or Walsh.
                              My main issue with Joss is why him and not Youngs? Both had careers cut tragically short and both were on a HOF path when that happened.


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