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  • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Or the Second Coming of Tony Pena?
    Right.

    Instead, we got a top 3 all-time defender who would be a career league-average offensive player. Or the catcher version of Ozzie Smith.
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    • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
      Instead, we got a top 3 all-time defender who would be a career league-average offensive player. Or the catcher version of Ozzie Smith.
      That is so very apt! What a great player!
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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      • I know lots of people don't care about benchmarks but I love benchmarks, round numbers, etc... I'm a huge Track and Field fan and there are certain hallowed numbers. Also, it's not a Marathon if you don't finish the final 385 yards.

        So, Yadier getting to 1000 RBI is a big deal to me. It just tipped him over and I've officially voted in this thread for a "Yes" and added with his defense and longevity I'm happy to do so.

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        • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

          Right.

          Instead, we got a top 3 all-time defender who would be a career league-average offensive player. Or the catcher version of Ozzie Smith.
          Even if defense at the catcher spot was as 'valuable' as that from shortstop (it isn't IMO), then Molina is far from Ozzie. As much as I dislike WAR, and I realize that it isn't great to use for catchers, it really stands out to me that Molina has had a total of two seasons with more than 3.2 WAR. This is pathetic, even by catcher standards. Jorge Posasa, a much better HOF candidate, has six seasons with 4.0 or more. I think WAR is correct in this case.

          Molina simply had only two or three seasons as a star player, and besides that was pretty mediocre overall.

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          • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

            Right.

            Instead, we got a top 3 all-time defender who would be a career league-average offensive player. Or the catcher version of Ozzie Smith.
            BA: Where does Molina rank defensively among all catchers in MLB history? How about since 1990? How about since 2004?

            Do you have the numbers broken down?

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            • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

              Right.

              Instead, we got a top 3 all-time defender who would be a career league-average offensive player. Or the catcher version of Ozzie Smith.
              And an above-average hitter for a catcher. People often forget that Ozzie was actually an above-average hitter compared to the other shortstops of his era. And of course, is probably the greatest defensive player in history.

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              • Molina's durability counts a lot for me. The Cardinals organization / management could always count on him to be there for over a decade. They almost never needed to go shopping around, shuffling their lineups, or putting below-average replacements behind the plate. They had a great catcher for a long time.

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                • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  What was expected of Sundberg as prospect? After his first all-star season, after 1980, after he arrived in Milwaukee and Kansas City? This is within memory of a lot of you. Anyone remember? We’ve never had a regular poster that follows the Rangers so I know better than that.

                  edit: what about the 1985 World Series did he slow down the Cardinals runners to a great extent? Guys of his defensive renown usually shut down running games especially in the postseason: Schang, Schalk, Pudge, Molina…
                  Sundberg was considered, as a prospect to be an above-average OFFENSIVE prospect who was a good Defensive catcher. This, of course, was in an era where there was Johnny Bench, lots of platooning at catcher, and Catch-and-Throw guys (scouts' label) that struggled with the bat. If you could hit like Bench, but not field like Bench, you were moved off of Catcher to the Left end of the Defensive Spectrum. Sundberg had great plate discipline, a skill underappreciated in his time, but one that would be recognized if he came up today. I wouldn't advocate for Sundberg for the HOF, but he's a better player than Bob Boone was, all things considered, and Boone was considered a likely HOFer at the time of his retirement, but that perception faded the minute Fisk passed him in games played at C. Sundberg passed Al Lopez's mark for gemes at catcher, and he'd be a bigger deal if he'd have been the first to do so.

                  Molina has had remarkable durability. While a sudden loss of the abiility to hit would tank his chances to pass Ivan Rodriguez, he's a 50-50 shot to do so if he decides to keep playing. He's a narrative HOFer, but retaining his ability for as long as he has is a sign of real greatness, and I doubt Yadi will have much resistance to his election to the HOF.
                  "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                  NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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