Ranking the HoF Players: 151-155

[DoubleX]

Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

Election Format: Voters are to submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
- Tiebreakers: Tiebreakers at the end of an election will be decided in the following order: 1) Total ballot appearances in that election; 2) Total points in that election irrespective of number of ballots; 3) Number of first place votes in that election; 4) Average ranking on ballots appeared on in that election. Players that lose a tiebreaker for the fifth spot in an election will be voted in as the sixth player in that election, with the next election to elect just four players.

Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

Results
1) Babe Ruth
2) Willie Mays
3) Ty Cobb
4) Ted Williams
5) Hank Aaron
6) Honus Wagner
7) Walter Johnson
8) Lou Gehrig
9) Cy Young
10) Stan Musial
11) Mickey Mantle
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Jackie Robinson
14) Tris Speaker
15) Josh Gibson
16) Eddie Collins
17) Satchel Paige
18) Grover Alexander
19) Frank Robinson
20) Joe DiMaggio
21) Oscar Charleston
22) Mike Schmidt
23) Lefty Grove
24) Tom Seaver
25) Cap Anson
26) Christy Mathewson
27) Rickey Henderson
28) Jimmie Foxx
29) Nap Lajoie
30) Joe Morgan
31) Johnny Bench
32) Mel Ott
33) Warren Spahn
34) Yogi Berra
35) Cal Ripken
36) George Brett
37) Pop Lloyd
38) Kid Nichols
39) Eddie Mathews
40) Bob Feller
41) Roberto Clemente
42) Bob Gibson
43) Joe Williams
44) Carl Yastrzemski
45) Hank Greenberg
46) Dan Brouthers
47) Steve Carlton
48) Sandy Koufax
49) Ed Delahanty
50) Johnny Mize
51) Al Kaline
52) Turkey Stearnes
53) Wade Boggs
54) Charlie Gehringer
55) Mickey Cochrane
56) Reggie Jackson
57) Arky Vaughan
58) Roger Connor
59) Nolan Ryan
---Top 25% Cutoff---
60) Robin Yount
61) Rod Carew
62) Tony Gwynn
63) Carl Hubbell
64) Roy Campanella
65) Ernie Banks
66) Sam Crawford
67) Duke Snider
68) George Davis
69) King Kelly
70) John Ward
71) Eddie Murray
72) Bullet Rogan
73) Harmon Killebrew
74) Buck Ewing
75) Billy Hamilton
76) Gaylord Perry
77) Carlton Fisk
78) Paul Waner
79) Juan Marichal
80) Al Simmons
81) John Clarkson
82) Martin Dihigo
83) Robin Roberts
84) Willie McCovey
85) Frankie Frisch
86) Phil Niekro
87) Eddie Plank
88) Gary Carter
89) Whitey Ford
90) Tim Keefe
91) Mordecai Brown
92) Luke Appling
93) Brooks Robinson
94) Ferguson Jenkins
95) Willie Stargell
96) Frank Baker
97) Jim Palmer
98) Joe Cronin
99) Bill Dickey
100) Jesse Burkett
101) Harry Heilmann
102) Fred Clarke
103) Buck Leonard
104) Hoyt Wilhelm
105) Ed Walsh
106) Bert Blyleven
107) Barry Larkin
108) Gabby Hartnett
109) Dave Winfield
110) George Sisler
111) Mule Suttles
112) Joe Medwick
113) Jim O'Rourke
114) Jud Wilson
115) Ozzie Smith
116) Paul Molitor
117) Charles Radbourn
118) Monte Irvin
---Top 50% Cutoff---
119) Ryne Sandberg
120) Roberto Alomar
121) Ron Santo
122) Billy Williams
123) Willie Keeler
124) Willie Wells
125) Cristobal Torriente
126) Dennis Eckersley
127) Zack Wheat
128) Larry Doby
129) Amos Rusie
130) Goose Goslin
131) Bill Terry
132) Don Drysdale
133) Dizzy Dean
134) Lou Brock
135) Rube Waddell
136) Cool Papa Bell
137) Hal Newhouser
138) Joe Gordon
139) Kirby Puckett
140) Lou Boudreau
141) Ralph Kiner
142) Rich Gossage
143) Dazzy Vance
144) Pee Wee Reese
145) Sam Thompson
146) Pud Galvin
147) Billy Herman
148) Biz Mackey
149) Louis Santop
150) Early Wynn

Master List

[B][U]Player				BBF Rank[/U][/B]
Hank Aaron			5
Grover Alexander		18
Roberto Alomar			120
Cap Anson			25
Luis Aparicio
Luke Appling			92
Richie Ashburn
Earl Averill
Frank Baker			96
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Banks			65
Jake Beckley
Cool Papa Bell			136
Johnny Bench			31
Chief Bender
Yogi Berra			34
Bert Blyleven			106
Wade Boggs			53
Jim Bottomley
Lou Boudreau			140
Roger Bresnahan
George Brett			36
Lou Brock			134
Dan Brouthers			46
Mordecai Brown			91
Ray Brown
Willard Brown
Jim Bunning
Jesse Burkett			100
Roy Campanella			64
Rod Carew			61
Max Carey
Steve Carlton			47
Gary Carter			88
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
Oscar Charleston		21
Jack Chesbro
Fred Clarke			102
John Clarkson			81
Roberto Clemente		41
Ty Cobb				3
Mickey Cochrane			55
Eddie Collins			16
Jimmy Collins
Earle Combs
Roger Connor			58
Andy Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Sam Crawford			66
Joe Cronin			98
Kiki Cuyler
Ray Dandridge
George Davis			68
Andre Dawson
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean			133
Ed Delahanty			49
Bill Dickey			99
Martin Dihigo			82
Joe DiMaggio			20
Larry Doby			128
Bobby Doerr
Don Drysdale			132
Hugh Duffy
Dennis Eckersley		126
Johnny Evers
Buck Ewing			74
Red Faber
Bob Feller			40
Rick Ferrell
Rollie Fingers
Carlton Fisk			77
Elmer Flick
Whitey Ford			89
Bill Foster
Nellie Fox
Jimmie Foxx			28
Frankie Frisch			85
Pud Galvin			146
Lou Gehrig			8
Charlie Gehringer		54
Bob Gibson			42
Josh Gibson			15
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon			138
Goose Goslin			130
Rich Gossage			142
Frank Grant
Hank Greenberg			45
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove			23
Tony Gwynn			62
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Billy Hamilton			75
Gabby Hartnett			108
Harry Heilmann			101
Rickey Henderson		27
Billy Herman			147
Pete Hill
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby			12
Waite Hoyt
Carl Hubbell			63
Catfish Hunter
Monte Irvin			118
Reggie Jackson			56
Travis Jackson	
Ferguson Jenkins		94
Hugh Jennings
Judy Johnson
Walter Johnson			7
Addie Joss
Al Kaline			51
Tim Keefe			90
Willie Keeler			123
George Kell
Joe Kelley
George Kelly
King Kelly			69
Harmon Killebrew		73
Ralph Kiner			141
Chuck Klein
Sandy Koufax			48
Nap Lajoie			29
Barry Larkin			107
Tony Lazzeri
Bob Lemon
Buck Leonard			103
Freddie Lindstrom
Pop Lloyd			37
Ernie Lombardi
Ted Lyons
Biz Mackey			148
Mickey Mantle			11
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Juan Marichal			79
Rube Marquard
Eddie Mathews			39
Christy Mathewson		26
Willie Mays			2
Bill Mazeroski
Tommy McCarthy
Willie McCovey			84
Joe McGinnity
Bid McPhee
Joe Medwick			112
Jose Mendez
Johnny Mize			50
Paul Molitor			116
Joe Morgan			30
Eddie Murray			71
Stan Musial			10
Hal Newhouser			137
Kid Nichols			38
Phil Niekro			86
Jim O’Rourke			113
Mel Ott				32
Satchel Paige			17
Jim Palmer			97
Herb Pennock
Tony Perez
Gaylord Perry			76
Eddie Plank			87
Kirby Puckett			139
Charles Radbourn		117
Pee Wee Reese			144
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Cal Ripken			35
Eppa Rixey
Phil Rizzuto
Robin Roberts			83
Brooks Robinson			93
Frank Robinson			19
Jackie Robinson			13
Bullet Rogan			72
Edd Roush
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie			129
Babe Ruth			1
Nolan Ryan			59
Ryne Sandberg			119
Ron Santo			121
Louis Santop			149
Ray Schalk
Mike Schmidt			22
Red Schoendienst
Tom Seaver			24
Joe Sewell
Al Simmons			80
George Sisler			110
Enos Slaughter
Hilton Smith
Ozzie Smith			115
Duke Snider			67
Warren Spahn			33
Tris Speaker			14
Willie Stargell			95
Turkey Stearnes			52
Bruce Sutter
Mule Suttles			111
Don Sutton
Ben Taylor
Bill Terry			131
Sam Thompson			145
Joe Tinker
Cristobal Torriente		125
Pie Traynor
Dazzy Vance			143
Arky Vaughan			57
Rube Waddell			135
Honus Wagner			6
Bobby Wallace
Ed Walsh			105
Lloyd Waner
Paul Waner			78
John Ward			70
Mickey Welch
Willie Wells			124
Zack Wheat			127
Hoyt Wilhelm			104
Billy Williams			122
Joe Williams			43
Ted Williams			4
Vic Willis
Hack Wilson
Jud Wilson			114
Dave Winfield			109
Early Wynn			150
Carl Yastrzemski		44
Cy Young			9
Ross Youngs
Robin Yount			60

Ranking by Primary Position
Catcher (12): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Biz Mackey (148), Louis Santop (149)

First Base (14): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131)

Second Base (12): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120), Joe Gordon (138), Billy Herman (147)

Shortstop (15): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144)

Third Base (9): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121)

Left Field (17): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130), Lou Brock (134), Ralph Kiner (141)

Center Field (13): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128), Cool Papa Bell (136), Kirby Puckett (139)

Right Field (15): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123), Sam Thompson (145)

Pitcher (43): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129), Don Drysdale (132), Dizzy Dean (133), Rube Waddell (135), Hal Newhouser (137), Rich Gossage (142), Dazzy Vance (143), Pud Galvin (146), Early Wynn (150)

Ranking by Primary Decade
1880s (11): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117), Pud Galvin (146)

1890s (9): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129), Sam Thompson (145)

1900 (8): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102), Rube Waddell (135)

1910s (11): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127), Louis Santop (149)

1920s (12): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130), Dazzy Vance (143), Biz Mackey (148)

1930s (25): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131), Dizzy Dean (133), Cool Papa Bell (136), Billy Herman (147)

1940s (12): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118), Hal Newhouser (137), Joe Gordon (138), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144)

1950s (12): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128), Ralph Kiner (141), Early Wynn (150)

1960s (16): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122), Don Drysdale (132)

1970s (16): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106), Lou Brock (134)

1980s (15): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126), Rich Gossage (142)

1990s (3): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120), Kirby Puckett (139)

Links to Previous Elections
Election 1-5
Election 6-10
Election 11-15
Election 16-20
Election 21- 25
Election 26-30
Election 31-35
Election 36-40 (41)
Election 42-45
Election 46-50
Election 51-55
Election 56-60
Election 61-65
Election 65-70
Election 71-75
Election 75-80 (81)
Election 82-85
Election 86-90
Election 91-95
Election 96-100
Election 101-105 (106)
Election 107-110
Election 111-115
Election 116-120
Election 121-125
Election 126-130 (131)
Election 132-135
Election 136-140
Election 141-145
Election 146-150

[DoubleX]

1) Jimmy Collins
2) Stan Coveleski
3) Earl Averill
4) Ted Lyons
5) Red Ruffing
6) Frank Chance
7) Roger Bresnahan
8) Don Sutton
9) Richie Ashburn
10) Elmer Flick

I dropped Joe Kelley and Bobby Doerr in favor of Don Sutton and Elmer Flick and also developed new appreciation for Frank Chance. I also gave strong consideration to the often underrated Bobby Wallace.

[PVNICK]

1. Frank Chance - 10
2. Jimmy Collins - 9
3. Ted Lyons - 8
4. Edd Roush - 7
5. Stan Coveleski - 6
6. Richie Ashburn - 5
7. Ray Brown - 4
8. Ted Lyons - 3
9. Don Sutton - 2
10. Earl Averill - 1

soon to be added: McGinnity, McPhee, Traynor, Carey, Flick

[J W]

1. Pete Hill (10)
2. Enos Slaughter (9)
3. Stan Coveleski (8)
4. Frank Grant (7)
5. Ray Brown (6)
6. Willard Brown (5)
7. Frank Chance (4)
8. Earl Averill (3)
9. Joe McGinnity (2)
10. Jimmy Collins (1)
Bobby Doerr
Addie Joss
Ted Lyons
Pie Traynor
Jim Bunning
Roger Bresnahan
Don Sutton
Edd Roush
Joe Sewell
Richie Ashburn

...Bobby Wallace is also on my radar now; will probably make the waiting room next round.

Twenty-seven names to go before we hit the 3/4 mark. I'm interested to see who makes it above and below the cutoff. Sort of like making the Friday cut at a professional golf tournament.

[dgarza]

deleted post

[Cowtipper]

1) Joe McGinnity
2) Sam Rice
3) Don Sutton
4) Joe Kelley
5) Edd Roush
6) Andre Dawson
7) Max Carey
8) Hugh Duffy
9) Stan Coveleski
10) Chuck Klein

[jalbright]

1. Hugh Jennings
2. Jim Bunning
3. Joe Kelley
4. Willard Brown
5. Ray Brown
6. Red Ruffing
7. Bobby Wallace
8. Elmer Flick
9. Will Foster
10. Frank Chance

Chance nudged out Dawson due to his managing.

[jjpm74]

1. Frank Chance
2. Max Carey
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Johnny Evers
5. Earl Averill
6. Edd Roush
7. Roger Bresnahan
8. Bobby Doerr
9. Don Sutton
10. Jimmy Collins

In queue: Ted Lyons, Joe McGinnity, Bid McPhee, Stan Coveleski, Bobby Wallace

[dgarza]

I updated my "boost" factors... This is the 3rd time I've updated them in this project. It's probably the last.

1. Andre Dawson
2. Mickey Welch
3. Rollie Fingers
4. Chuck Klein
5. Nellie Fox
6. Richie Ashburn
7. Orlando Cepeda
8. Hugh Duffy
9. Bobby Doerr
10. Elmer Flick

Just missed : Jim Rice, Pie Traynor

Soon : Kiki Cuyler, Don Sutton, Joe McGinnity

[SavoyBG]

1 - Max Carey
2 - Ted Lyons
3 - Jimmy Collins
4 - Pie Traynor
5 - Red Ruffing
6 - Bid McPhee
7 - Hughie Jennings
8 - Ed Roush
9 - Richie Ashburn
10 - Leon Day

My next batch, in order - Jake Beckley, Joe Kelley, Roger Bresnahan, Frank Chance, Mickey Welch, Earl Averill,
Jim Bunning, Joe McGinnity, Red Faber, Orlando Cepeda, Stan Coveleski, Hugh Duffy, Bob Lemon

[Herr28]

1. Joe McGinnity
2. Enos Slaughter
3. Earl Averill
4. Edd Roush
5. Stan Coveleski
6. Don Sutton
7. Ted Lyons
8. Joe Kelley
9. Hugh Duffy
10. Jim Bottomley

[DoubleX]

For those that support Edd Roush over Earl Averill, I have to ask - why? I see Averill as a clearly superior player and don't believe Big Edd has enough subjective factors to make up the difference.

OPS+: Averill 133, Roush 126 (Roush had about 900 extra MLB plate appearances)

WAR: Roush 46.5, Averill 45.0, but this doesn't tell the whole story. First, Roush gets credit for 3.1 WAR for his two years in the Federal League, otherwise his Major League total would be 43.4. Otherwise, Roush spent his whole career in the Majors. Averill, on the other hand, Averill didn't play in the Majors until he was 27 and spent the first three years of his career in the PCL (and he didn't even start there until he was 24), and was phenomenal in all three. The PCL during Averill's time there had to be at least as good if not superior to Roush's FL, so if Roush gets WAR credit for the FL, it would seem only fair to give Averill credit for his three PCL years. With credit, Averill WAR is probably around 60.0, if not higher. Based on WAR, it would seem Averill made much more of his time in the Majors.

Leaderboards: Both players had a comparable number of years in the top 5 or 10 of various important categories, but neither player has much to really boast about here in terms of dominance, though Roush did win two batting titles.

Defensively: Roush looks to have been mostly average, while Averill fluctuated between average and slightly below average, so nothing here to really set Roush apart.

[SavoyBG]

For those that support Edd Roush over Earl Averill, I have to ask - why? I see Averill as a clearly superior player and don't believe Big Edd has enough subjective factors to make up the difference.

OPS+: Averill 133, Roush 126 (Roush had about 900 extra MLB plate appearances)

WAR: Roush 46.5, Averill 45.0, but this doesn't tell the whole story. First, Roush gets credit for 3.1 WAR for his two years in the Federal League, otherwise his Major League total would be 43.4. Otherwise, Roush spent his whole career in the Majors. Averill, on the other hand, Averill didn't play in the Majors until he was 27 and spent the first three years of his career in the PCL (and he didn't even start there until he was 24), and was phenomenal in all three. The PCL during Averill's time there had to be at least as good if not superior to Roush's FL, so if Roush gets WAR credit for the FL, it would seem only fair to give Averill credit for his three PCL years. With credit, Averill WAR is probably around 60.0, if not higher. Based on WAR, it would seem Averill made much more of his time in the Majors.

Leaderboards: Both players had a comparable number of years in the top 5 or 10 of various important categories, but neither player has much to really boast about here in terms of dominance, though Roush did win two batting titles.

Defensively: Roush looks to have been mostly average, while Averill fluctuated between average and slightly below average, so nothing here to really set Roush apart.

WIN SHARES it's Roush 314-280 and he wins the best three seasons too, 33-33-30 to 33-30-30 for Averill. For me it's just the short career, 900 PA is two seasons. Win shares fielding has Averill an A+ and Roush an A-. Roush played 298 more games, and his Federal League stuff was early, including just a partial season the first year. Averill was a better overall player I guess, but I'm penalizing him some for the short career.

[DoubleX]

WIN SHARES it's Roush 314-280 and he wins the best three seasons too, 33-33-30 to 33-30-30 for Averill. For me it's just the short career, 900 PA is two seasons. Win shares fielding has Averill an A+ and Roush an A-. Roush played 298 more games, and his Federal League stuff was early, including just a partial season the first year. Averill was a better overall player I guess, but I'm penalizing him some for the short career.

You're punishing him for a short MLB career, but the fact that his first three seasons were in the PCL had more to do with the realities of the day than anything else. Averill did play at a high level of professional baseball for those years and played extremely well. Had he played those years in the Majors he likely sails past Roush in win shares. Averill also tops Roush in top 5 ws seasons, 143 to 136 and inws per 162 27.17 to 25.86. So while Roush has a narrow edge in top 3 (keeping in mind that unlije Averill, he played his entire prime in MLB), Averill appears to have played at the higher level for longer.

Personally, I don't see the two as particularly close.

[SavoyBG]

You're punishing him for a short MLB career, but the fact that his first three seasons were in the PCL had more to do with the realities of the day than anything else.

Perhaps, but I can't start making allowances for that, at least not when it comes to hall of fame worthiness. Like I said, Averill was likely a better overall player, but I have a problem with short career HOFers unless they were very special. If it was MY hall of fame Averill would not be in it. I see him as about dead even with Cesar Cedeno, who I would not put in either. I may have voted for them in the Progressive project because of the standards that were set by the voters, but if I was picking the hall of fame myself, Averill and Cedeno would not be in it, and maybe not Roush either.