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Ranking the HoF Players: 151-155

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  • Ranking the HoF Players: 151-155

    Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

    Election Format: Voters are to submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
    - Tiebreakers: Tiebreakers at the end of an election will be decided in the following order: 1) Total ballot appearances in that election; 2) Total points in that election irrespective of number of ballots; 3) Number of first place votes in that election; 4) Average ranking on ballots appeared on in that election. Players that lose a tiebreaker for the fifth spot in an election will be voted in as the sixth player in that election, with the next election to elect just four players.

    Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

    Results
    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Willie Mays
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Walter Johnson
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Cy Young
    10) Stan Musial
    11) Mickey Mantle
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Jackie Robinson
    14) Tris Speaker
    15) Josh Gibson
    16) Eddie Collins
    17) Satchel Paige
    18) Grover Alexander
    19) Frank Robinson
    20) Joe DiMaggio
    21) Oscar Charleston
    22) Mike Schmidt
    23) Lefty Grove
    24) Tom Seaver
    25) Cap Anson
    26) Christy Mathewson
    27) Rickey Henderson
    28) Jimmie Foxx
    29) Nap Lajoie
    30) Joe Morgan
    31) Johnny Bench
    32) Mel Ott
    33) Warren Spahn
    34) Yogi Berra
    35) Cal Ripken
    36) George Brett
    37) Pop Lloyd
    38) Kid Nichols
    39) Eddie Mathews
    40) Bob Feller
    41) Roberto Clemente
    42) Bob Gibson
    43) Joe Williams
    44) Carl Yastrzemski
    45) Hank Greenberg
    46) Dan Brouthers
    47) Steve Carlton
    48) Sandy Koufax
    49) Ed Delahanty
    50) Johnny Mize
    51) Al Kaline
    52) Turkey Stearnes
    53) Wade Boggs
    54) Charlie Gehringer
    55) Mickey Cochrane
    56) Reggie Jackson
    57) Arky Vaughan
    58) Roger Connor
    59) Nolan Ryan
    ---Top 25% Cutoff---
    60) Robin Yount
    61) Rod Carew
    62) Tony Gwynn
    63) Carl Hubbell
    64) Roy Campanella
    65) Ernie Banks
    66) Sam Crawford
    67) Duke Snider
    68) George Davis
    69) King Kelly
    70) John Ward
    71) Eddie Murray
    72) Bullet Rogan
    73) Harmon Killebrew
    74) Buck Ewing
    75) Billy Hamilton
    76) Gaylord Perry
    77) Carlton Fisk
    78) Paul Waner
    79) Juan Marichal
    80) Al Simmons
    81) John Clarkson
    82) Martin Dihigo
    83) Robin Roberts
    84) Willie McCovey
    85) Frankie Frisch
    86) Phil Niekro
    87) Eddie Plank
    88) Gary Carter
    89) Whitey Ford
    90) Tim Keefe
    91) Mordecai Brown
    92) Luke Appling
    93) Brooks Robinson
    94) Ferguson Jenkins
    95) Willie Stargell
    96) Frank Baker
    97) Jim Palmer
    98) Joe Cronin
    99) Bill Dickey
    100) Jesse Burkett
    101) Harry Heilmann
    102) Fred Clarke
    103) Buck Leonard
    104) Hoyt Wilhelm
    105) Ed Walsh
    106) Bert Blyleven
    107) Barry Larkin
    108) Gabby Hartnett
    109) Dave Winfield
    110) George Sisler
    111) Mule Suttles
    112) Joe Medwick
    113) Jim O'Rourke
    114) Jud Wilson
    115) Ozzie Smith
    116) Paul Molitor
    117) Charles Radbourn
    118) Monte Irvin
    ---Top 50% Cutoff---
    119) Ryne Sandberg
    120) Roberto Alomar
    121) Ron Santo
    122) Billy Williams
    123) Willie Keeler
    124) Willie Wells
    125) Cristobal Torriente
    126) Dennis Eckersley
    127) Zack Wheat
    128) Larry Doby
    129) Amos Rusie
    130) Goose Goslin
    131) Bill Terry
    132) Don Drysdale
    133) Dizzy Dean
    134) Lou Brock
    135) Rube Waddell
    136) Cool Papa Bell
    137) Hal Newhouser
    138) Joe Gordon
    139) Kirby Puckett
    140) Lou Boudreau
    141) Ralph Kiner
    142) Rich Gossage
    143) Dazzy Vance
    144) Pee Wee Reese
    145) Sam Thompson
    146) Pud Galvin
    147) Billy Herman
    148) Biz Mackey
    149) Louis Santop
    150) Early Wynn

    Master List
    Code:
    Player				BBF Rank
    Hank Aaron			5
    Grover Alexander		18
    Roberto Alomar			120
    Cap Anson			25
    Luis Aparicio
    Luke Appling			92
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker			96
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks			65
    Jake Beckley
    Cool Papa Bell			136
    Johnny Bench			31
    Chief Bender
    Yogi Berra			34
    Bert Blyleven			106
    Wade Boggs			53
    Jim Bottomley
    Lou Boudreau			140
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett			36
    Lou Brock			134
    Dan Brouthers			46
    Mordecai Brown			91
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett			100
    Roy Campanella			64
    Rod Carew			61
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton			47
    Gary Carter			88
    Orlando Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston		21
    Jack Chesbro
    Fred Clarke			102
    John Clarkson			81
    Roberto Clemente		41
    Ty Cobb				3
    Mickey Cochrane			55
    Eddie Collins			16
    Jimmy Collins
    Earle Combs
    Roger Connor			58
    Andy Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford			66
    Joe Cronin			98
    Kiki Cuyler
    Ray Dandridge
    George Davis			68
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean			133
    Ed Delahanty			49
    Bill Dickey			99
    Martin Dihigo			82
    Joe DiMaggio			20
    Larry Doby			128
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale			132
    Hugh Duffy
    Dennis Eckersley		126
    Johnny Evers
    Buck Ewing			74
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller			40
    Rick Ferrell
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk			77
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford			89
    Bill Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx			28
    Frankie Frisch			85
    Pud Galvin			146
    Lou Gehrig			8
    Charlie Gehringer		54
    Bob Gibson			42
    Josh Gibson			15
    Lefty Gomez
    Joe Gordon			138
    Goose Goslin			130
    Rich Gossage			142
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg			45
    Burleigh Grimes
    Lefty Grove			23
    Tony Gwynn			62
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Billy Hamilton			75
    Gabby Hartnett			108
    Harry Heilmann			101
    Rickey Henderson		27
    Billy Herman			147
    Pete Hill
    Harry Hooper
    Rogers Hornsby			12
    Waite Hoyt
    Carl Hubbell			63
    Catfish Hunter
    Monte Irvin			118
    Reggie Jackson			56
    Travis Jackson	
    Ferguson Jenkins		94
    Hugh Jennings
    Judy Johnson
    Walter Johnson			7
    Addie Joss
    Al Kaline			51
    Tim Keefe			90
    Willie Keeler			123
    George Kell
    Joe Kelley
    George Kelly
    King Kelly			69
    Harmon Killebrew		73
    Ralph Kiner			141
    Chuck Klein
    Sandy Koufax			48
    Nap Lajoie			29
    Barry Larkin			107
    Tony Lazzeri
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard			103
    Freddie Lindstrom
    Pop Lloyd			37
    Ernie Lombardi
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey			148
    Mickey Mantle			11
    Heinie Manush
    Rabbit Maranville
    Juan Marichal			79
    Rube Marquard
    Eddie Mathews			39
    Christy Mathewson		26
    Willie Mays			2
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Willie McCovey			84
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick			112
    Jose Mendez
    Johnny Mize			50
    Paul Molitor			116
    Joe Morgan			30
    Eddie Murray			71
    Stan Musial			10
    Hal Newhouser			137
    Kid Nichols			38
    Phil Niekro			86
    Jim O’Rourke			113
    Mel Ott				32
    Satchel Paige			17
    Jim Palmer			97
    Herb Pennock
    Tony Perez
    Gaylord Perry			76
    Eddie Plank			87
    Kirby Puckett			139
    Charles Radbourn		117
    Pee Wee Reese			144
    Jim Rice
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken			35
    Eppa Rixey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts			83
    Brooks Robinson			93
    Frank Robinson			19
    Jackie Robinson			13
    Bullet Rogan			72
    Edd Roush
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie			129
    Babe Ruth			1
    Nolan Ryan			59
    Ryne Sandberg			119
    Ron Santo			121
    Louis Santop			149
    Ray Schalk
    Mike Schmidt			22
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver			24
    Joe Sewell
    Al Simmons			80
    George Sisler			110
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith			115
    Duke Snider			67
    Warren Spahn			33
    Tris Speaker			14
    Willie Stargell			95
    Turkey Stearnes			52
    Bruce Sutter
    Mule Suttles			111
    Don Sutton
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry			131
    Sam Thompson			145
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente		125
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance			143
    Arky Vaughan			57
    Rube Waddell			135
    Honus Wagner			6
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh			105
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner			78
    John Ward			70
    Mickey Welch
    Willie Wells			124
    Zack Wheat			127
    Hoyt Wilhelm			104
    Billy Williams			122
    Joe Williams			43
    Ted Williams			4
    Vic Willis
    Hack Wilson
    Jud Wilson			114
    Dave Winfield			109
    Early Wynn			150
    Carl Yastrzemski		44
    Cy Young			9
    Ross Youngs
    Robin Yount			60
    Ranking by Primary Position
    Catcher (12): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Biz Mackey (148), Louis Santop (149)

    First Base (14): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131)

    Second Base (12): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120), Joe Gordon (138), Billy Herman (147)

    Shortstop (15): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144)

    Third Base (9): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121)

    Left Field (17): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130), Lou Brock (134), Ralph Kiner (141)

    Center Field (13): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128), Cool Papa Bell (136), Kirby Puckett (139)

    Right Field (15): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123), Sam Thompson (145)

    Pitcher (43): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129), Don Drysdale (132), Dizzy Dean (133), Rube Waddell (135), Hal Newhouser (137), Rich Gossage (142), Dazzy Vance (143), Pud Galvin (146), Early Wynn (150)

    Ranking by Primary Decade
    1880s (11): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117), Pud Galvin (146)

    1890s (9): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129), Sam Thompson (145)

    1900 (8): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102), Rube Waddell (135)

    1910s (11): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127), Louis Santop (149)

    1920s (12): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130), Dazzy Vance (143), Biz Mackey (148)

    1930s (25): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131), Dizzy Dean (133), Cool Papa Bell (136), Billy Herman (147)

    1940s (12): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118), Hal Newhouser (137), Joe Gordon (138), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144)

    1950s (12): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128), Ralph Kiner (141), Early Wynn (150)

    1960s (16): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122), Don Drysdale (132)

    1970s (16): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106), Lou Brock (134)

    1980s (15): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126), Rich Gossage (142)

    1990s (3): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120), Kirby Puckett (139)

    Links to Previous Elections
    Election 1-5
    Election 6-10
    Election 11-15
    Election 16-20
    Election 21- 25
    Election 26-30
    Election 31-35
    Election 36-40 (41)
    Election 42-45
    Election 46-50
    Election 51-55
    Election 56-60
    Election 61-65
    Election 65-70
    Election 71-75
    Election 75-80 (81)
    Election 82-85
    Election 86-90
    Election 91-95
    Election 96-100
    Election 101-105 (106)
    Election 107-110
    Election 111-115
    Election 116-120
    Election 121-125
    Election 126-130 (131)
    Election 132-135
    Election 136-140
    Election 141-145
    Election 146-150

  • #2
    1) Jimmy Collins
    2) Stan Coveleski
    3) Earl Averill
    4) Ted Lyons
    5) Red Ruffing
    6) Frank Chance
    7) Roger Bresnahan
    8) Don Sutton
    9) Richie Ashburn
    10) Elmer Flick

    I dropped Joe Kelley and Bobby Doerr in favor of Don Sutton and Elmer Flick and also developed new appreciation for Frank Chance. I also gave strong consideration to the often underrated Bobby Wallace.

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Frank Chance - 10
      2. Jimmy Collins - 9
      3. Ted Lyons - 8
      4. Edd Roush - 7
      5. Stan Coveleski - 6
      6. Richie Ashburn - 5
      7. Ray Brown - 4
      8. Ted Lyons - 3
      9. Don Sutton - 2
      10. Earl Averill - 1

      soon to be added: McGinnity, McPhee, Traynor, Carey, Flick

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Pete Hill (10)
        2. Enos Slaughter (9)
        3. Stan Coveleski (8)
        4. Frank Grant (7)
        5. Ray Brown (6)
        6. Willard Brown (5)
        7. Frank Chance (4)
        8. Earl Averill (3)
        9. Joe McGinnity (2)
        10. Jimmy Collins (1)
        Bobby Doerr
        Addie Joss
        Ted Lyons
        Pie Traynor
        Jim Bunning
        Roger Bresnahan
        Don Sutton
        Edd Roush
        Joe Sewell
        Richie Ashburn


        ...Bobby Wallace is also on my radar now; will probably make the waiting room next round.

        Twenty-seven names to go before we hit the 3/4 mark. I'm interested to see who makes it above and below the cutoff. Sort of like making the Friday cut at a professional golf tournament.
        http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

        Comment


        • #5
          deleted post
          Last edited by dgarza; 03-13-2012, 12:02 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            1) Joe McGinnity
            2) Sam Rice
            3) Don Sutton
            4) Joe Kelley
            5) Edd Roush
            6) Andre Dawson
            7) Max Carey
            8) Hugh Duffy
            9) Stan Coveleski
            10) Chuck Klein

            Comment


            • #7
              1. Hugh Jennings
              2. Jim Bunning
              3. Joe Kelley
              4. Willard Brown
              5. Ray Brown
              6. Red Ruffing
              7. Bobby Wallace
              8. Elmer Flick
              9. Will Foster
              10. Frank Chance

              Chance nudged out Dawson due to his managing.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                1. Frank Chance
                2. Max Carey
                3. Phil Rizzuto
                4. Johnny Evers
                5. Earl Averill
                6. Edd Roush
                7. Roger Bresnahan
                8. Bobby Doerr
                9. Don Sutton
                10. Jimmy Collins

                In queue: Ted Lyons, Joe McGinnity, Bid McPhee, Stan Coveleski, Bobby Wallace

                Comment


                • #9
                  I updated my "boost" factors... This is the 3rd time I've updated them in this project. It's probably the last.

                  1. Andre Dawson
                  2. Mickey Welch
                  3. Rollie Fingers
                  4. Chuck Klein
                  5. Nellie Fox
                  6. Richie Ashburn
                  7. Orlando Cepeda
                  8. Hugh Duffy
                  9. Bobby Doerr
                  10. Elmer Flick

                  Just missed : Jim Rice, Pie Traynor

                  Soon : Kiki Cuyler, Don Sutton, Joe McGinnity

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1 - Max Carey
                    2 - Ted Lyons
                    3 - Jimmy Collins
                    4 - Pie Traynor
                    5 - Red Ruffing
                    6 - Bid McPhee
                    7 - Hughie Jennings
                    8 - Ed Roush
                    9 - Richie Ashburn
                    10 - Leon Day

                    My next batch, in order - Jake Beckley, Joe Kelley, Roger Bresnahan, Frank Chance, Mickey Welch, Earl Averill,
                    Jim Bunning, Joe McGinnity, Red Faber, Orlando Cepeda, Stan Coveleski, Hugh Duffy, Bob Lemon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1. Joe McGinnity
                      2. Enos Slaughter
                      3. Earl Averill
                      4. Edd Roush
                      5. Stan Coveleski
                      6. Don Sutton
                      7. Ted Lyons
                      8. Joe Kelley
                      9. Hugh Duffy
                      10. Jim Bottomley
                      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For those that support Edd Roush over Earl Averill, I have to ask - why? I see Averill as a clearly superior player and don't believe Big Edd has enough subjective factors to make up the difference.

                        OPS+: Averill 133, Roush 126 (Roush had about 900 extra MLB plate appearances)

                        WAR: Roush 46.5, Averill 45.0, but this doesn't tell the whole story. First, Roush gets credit for 3.1 WAR for his two years in the Federal League, otherwise his Major League total would be 43.4. Otherwise, Roush spent his whole career in the Majors. Averill, on the other hand, Averill didn't play in the Majors until he was 27 and spent the first three years of his career in the PCL (and he didn't even start there until he was 24), and was phenomenal in all three. The PCL during Averill's time there had to be at least as good if not superior to Roush's FL, so if Roush gets WAR credit for the FL, it would seem only fair to give Averill credit for his three PCL years. With credit, Averill WAR is probably around 60.0, if not higher. Based on WAR, it would seem Averill made much more of his time in the Majors.

                        Leaderboards: Both players had a comparable number of years in the top 5 or 10 of various important categories, but neither player has much to really boast about here in terms of dominance, though Roush did win two batting titles.

                        Defensively: Roush looks to have been mostly average, while Averill fluctuated between average and slightly below average, so nothing here to really set Roush apart.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                          For those that support Edd Roush over Earl Averill, I have to ask - why? I see Averill as a clearly superior player and don't believe Big Edd has enough subjective factors to make up the difference.

                          OPS+: Averill 133, Roush 126 (Roush had about 900 extra MLB plate appearances)

                          WAR: Roush 46.5, Averill 45.0, but this doesn't tell the whole story. First, Roush gets credit for 3.1 WAR for his two years in the Federal League, otherwise his Major League total would be 43.4. Otherwise, Roush spent his whole career in the Majors. Averill, on the other hand, Averill didn't play in the Majors until he was 27 and spent the first three years of his career in the PCL (and he didn't even start there until he was 24), and was phenomenal in all three. The PCL during Averill's time there had to be at least as good if not superior to Roush's FL, so if Roush gets WAR credit for the FL, it would seem only fair to give Averill credit for his three PCL years. With credit, Averill WAR is probably around 60.0, if not higher. Based on WAR, it would seem Averill made much more of his time in the Majors.

                          Leaderboards: Both players had a comparable number of years in the top 5 or 10 of various important categories, but neither player has much to really boast about here in terms of dominance, though Roush did win two batting titles.

                          Defensively: Roush looks to have been mostly average, while Averill fluctuated between average and slightly below average, so nothing here to really set Roush apart.
                          WIN SHARES it's Roush 314-280 and he wins the best three seasons too, 33-33-30 to 33-30-30 for Averill. For me it's just the short career, 900 PA is two seasons. Win shares fielding has Averill an A+ and Roush an A-. Roush played 298 more games, and his Federal League stuff was early, including just a partial season the first year. Averill was a better overall player I guess, but I'm penalizing him some for the short career.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                            WIN SHARES it's Roush 314-280 and he wins the best three seasons too, 33-33-30 to 33-30-30 for Averill. For me it's just the short career, 900 PA is two seasons. Win shares fielding has Averill an A+ and Roush an A-. Roush played 298 more games, and his Federal League stuff was early, including just a partial season the first year. Averill was a better overall player I guess, but I'm penalizing him some for the short career.
                            You're punishing him for a short MLB career, but the fact that his first three seasons were in the PCL had more to do with the realities of the day than anything else. Averill did play at a high level of professional baseball for those years and played extremely well. Had he played those years in the Majors he likely sails past Roush in win shares. Averill also tops Roush in top 5 ws seasons, 143 to 136 and inws per 162 27.17 to 25.86. So while Roush has a narrow edge in top 3 (keeping in mind that unlije Averill, he played his entire prime in MLB), Averill appears to have played at the higher level for longer.

                            Personally, I don't see the two as particularly close.
                            Last edited by DoubleX; 03-13-2012, 04:52 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                              You're punishing him for a short MLB career, but the fact that his first three seasons were in the PCL had more to do with the realities of the day than anything else.
                              Perhaps, but I can't start making allowances for that, at least not when it comes to hall of fame worthiness. Like I said, Averill was likely a better overall player, but I have a problem with short career HOFers unless they were very special. If it was MY hall of fame Averill would not be in it. I see him as about dead even with Cesar Cedeno, who I would not put in either. I may have voted for them in the Progressive project because of the standards that were set by the voters, but if I was picking the hall of fame myself, Averill and Cedeno would not be in it, and maybe not Roush either.

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