BBF franchise HOF, 2nd chance round--American Association

[jalbright]

This will be the first second chance round election. What we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. The elections will only be open for a week--but there will be at least three or four days for discussion and new nominations. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. The deadline for suggesting nominees is twelve hours before the election begins.


In this case, the election will not begin until Saturday, March 31 at 7 am EDT, and will end at 7 am EDT April 7. Nominations close 12 hours before the election begins, or March 30 at 7 pm EDT. Ballots not cast within the stated election time frame will not count.

The American Association has the following already inducted:
Inducted Players (12): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, Dave Foutz, Guy Hecker, Silver King, Denny Lyons, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane, Tip O’Neill, Dave Orr, John Reilly, Harry Stovey
Inducted Contributors (4): Chris von der Ahe, O. P. Caylor, Charlie Commiskey, Denny McKnight

The list of nominees at present is:

Players
Frank Fennelly
Tim Keefe
Matt Kilroy
Henry Larkin
Ed Morris
Arlie Latham
Toad Ramsey
Curt Welch
Gus Weyhing
Will White

Contributors
Pop Snyder
Billy McMunnigle
Billy Barnie
Charles Byrne
Zack Phelps
Gus Schmelz
Bill Sharsig
Aaron Stern
Jimmy Williams
Wheeler Wykoff
John O. Kelly

[jalbright]

I posted an argument for Will White in the American Association, which I have now modified:

Will White was 1st in WAR in 1882, 2d in 1883 and 5th in 1884;
He was 1st, 2d, 5th, and 9th in 1882-85 (in that order) in WAR among pitchers;
He was 1st in ERA in 1883 and 4th in 1882;
He was 1st in wins in 1882 and 1883, 5th in 1884 and 10th in 1885;
His won/lost percentage ranking went from 1st to 4th to 7th to 10th in 1882 to 1885;
He was 3d in WHIP in 1883 and 4th in 1882;
His IP ranking from 1882 to 1885 went from 1st to 2d to 7th to 9th;
He was third in strikeouts in 1883 and 4th in 1882;
In complete games he went from 1st to 2d to 7th to 9th in 1882-1885;
In shutouts, he was first in all three years 1882 to 1884, and 4th in 1885.

Since the AA lasted only ten years, that is enough to make him a leading pitcher in the history of the league on a career basis:
5th in WAR, 4th in wins, 5th in win/loss percentage (minimum 1000 IP) and 6th in IP.

[jalbright]

I posted an argument for Ed Morris in the American Association, which I have now modified:

He only spent three years in the AA (which itself lasted only 10 years), 1884 to 1886. However, he clearly was a dominant pitcher for those three seasons.

Ed Morris was 1st in WAR in 1885 and 4th in 1884 among all players;
In WAR among pitchers he went from 3d to 1st to 2d;
In ERA, he finished 3d, 3d then 1st;
In wins, he went 5th, 2d, then 1st;
in won/lost percentage, he went 2nd, 6th, then 3d;
in WHIP, he went 2d then first the last two years;
in strikeouts per 9 IP, he finished 3d all three years;
in strikeouts, he went 6th then 1st then 3rd;
In complete games he was 1st and 3d in his last two years; and
In shutouts, he led in each of his last two years.

All this was enough to make him a leader in career totals in the brief tenure of the AA:
He was 3d in WAR among pitchers, 8th in wins, 4th in won/lost percentage (minimum 1000 IP), and 4th in ERA with the same minimum IP.

[jalbright]

jjpm74 suggested Pop Snyder as a contributor for the American Association:

Manager of the Red Stockings, and umpire in all major leagues from 1982-1901. His career as a player, manager and umpire makes him someone who could be considered as a contributor.

[jalbright]

jjpm also nominated Bill McMunnigle, giving the following reason:

Managed the Dodgers to their best years in the AA

[jalbright]

Here's a group of nominees by Beady for contributors for the American Association:

Some additional contributor candidates:

Billy Barnie, manager and owner or co-owner of Baltimore for much of its tenure in the Association. He ran the club, although admittedly usually without great success, essentially out of his personal checkbook for much of the time.

Charles Byrne, president of the Brooklyn club, a leader in the boardroom almost from the time his club joined in 1884, and in the late 1880's he led an aggressive policy of player purchases that made Brooklyn the champion in 1889. To my mind a decidedly more influential figure in the club than McGunnigle.

Zack Phelps, sometimes Louisville president, twice president of the Association and as the most eminent attorney in the group, sometimes a key figure in organizational strategizing.

Gus Schmelz, as an unknown tabbed to manage Columbus, probably because they couldn't find a manager anyone had heard of to take the job, he made his name with a surprise second place finish in 1884. Subsequently managed Cincinnati for three seasons and Columbus again in 1890-91, with another strong finish in 1890. This is probably more years managing in the AA by anybody other than Comiskey and one or two owner-managers. Also managed three NL clubs. I take a slightly jaded view of the matter myself, but some people now tout Schmelz as a leader and innovator in the development of little ball tactics in the late '80's and '90's.

Bill Sharsig, manager and/or co-owner of the Athletics for most of their time in the AA.

Aaron Stern, president of Cincinnati for most of its time in the AA. Now completely forgotten, but he had a reputation in his day as the only man who had ever made baseball pay in the Queen City.

Jimmy Williams, highly respected national baseball figure who was the Association's first secretary before resigning in 1884 to make an unsuccessful run at managing St. Louis. Later helped organize the Cleveland club and managed it for a year and a half.

Wheeler Wykoff, really not much more than a chief clerk, but he deserves some recognition as the Association's president with one very brief interruption from 1884 to 1889, more than all the other presidents put together.

[jalbright]

Paul Wendt nominated John O. Kelley for contributor of the American Association:

John O. Kelly
The major leagues introduced staff umpires during 1882 and "Honest John" O. Kelly was on the National League roster, second to Foghorn George Bradley in games worked that season.
: "1882 ML Umpires" in the Retrosheet encyclopedia
He is the name umpire for the Association 1883 to 1886 and he worked (some of?) the world's championship series with the NL name umpire Dave Gaffney. Remarkably, it seems today, they both left the staffs for the bench in 1887, Kelly to manage Louisville and Gaffney to manage Washington (including Joe Start early in the season, Connie Mack late!). Next season they both returned to the opposite staffs, Kelly the League and Gaffney the Association.

Ironically, John O. is "Kick" Kelly in baseball encyclopedias, presumably because he was a player who made life difficult for the umpires, in the old days when the latter were local part-time workers.

[jalbright]

JW made this presentation on behalf of Henry Larkin in the American Association:

Not much of a WAR champion since he played OF and 1B and wasn't much of a fielder, but his bat is probably the best remaining of the lot. In offensive WAR he finished 3rd in 1885, 6th in 1886 and 6th in 1889 among AA players. He finished with 3832 PA in seven years... from 1884 to 1889 he posted a 145 OPS+ and in 1991 a 130 OPS+ (straddling one year spent in the Players League). If AA is all we're counting I figure he should be elected.

[jalbright]

JW made the following argument for Curt Welch for the American Association:

Curt Welch spent eight consecutive years in the AA from 1884 to 1891 accruing 4483 PA. He appears to be the above-average hitter (109 OPS+) with a stellar glove type. I'm not the biggest fan of defensive WAR yet; nonetheless, his stats look very consistent. He posted 8.1 defensive WAR (20.8 overall) and finished top ten in the following years: 9th in 1884, 4th in 1885, 6th in 1886, 2nd in 1887 and 4th in 1891.

Also of note is the fact Welch is the best CF in the AA in WAR for 1886 and 1888 and was second best in 1889 and 1890. That's impressive for a league that only lasted 10 years. He is at least arguably the best CF in the history of that league, rivalled only by Pete Browning. Browning has a better WAR for those with at least 50% of their games at CF in the AA, but he has a bad glove rap and played many more games at spots other than CF,

[jalbright]

Beady made this case for Arlie Latham in the American Association:

Setting aside the players and Comiskey as captain, Latham was the player contemporaries mentioned most when they talked about the Browns. A lot of that was his colorful personality, but he was also considered a very good player. Von der Ahe kept him when he sold off a lot of the team in the fall of 1887, although his life certainly would have been simpler and quieter without Latham, and he could have gotten a good price for him. Then when Latham got away from St. Louis, he remained a regular at Cincinnati until 1895, and I don't believe they were keeping himin the lineup just as a drawing card.

He was a mainstay of the Association's greatest team for most of the AA's history, and his departure from St. Louis coincides with the essential end of the Browns' dynasty. I think that qualifies him for a vote. If I had only two votes for St. Louis position players, they would go to Latham and Welch. Give me a third, and I'd add the slow and reportedly lackadaisical O'Neill.

By the way, it does appear to me (without reading any Cincinnati newspaper) that they re-hired [Latham] as a drawing card during summer 1900.
Certainly some Boston newspapers covered him as a drawing card.
Earlier this millenium he was the earliest known coach on salary. I dont' know whether that is still true.

Took me a minute to realize the last sentence did not mean Latham was coaching within the last ten years, but rather that within the last decade the opinion he was the first to do so was generally held.

Peter Morris' Game of Inches, the source to start with for any question like this, still lists Latham as the first non-playing coach. When Bobby Matthews was at the end of his playing career around 1887 he had or claimed to have an agreement to tutor the Athletics' pitchers, but it broke down, there were suggestions of a lawsuit and he never worked at the job. I can't remember all the details now, but he definitely never did it. He would probably have been the first pitching coach.

At any rate, Latham made a name as a noisy, animated and witty base coach during his playing days, at a time when non-players were not allowed on the coaching lines. He was undoubtedly hired by the Reds and later the Giants first of all to "coach" in that sense, to be the first or third base coach, and no doubt he was expected to be a drawing card in that capacity. I have read that the players of one team or the other (can't remember which) believed another, less publicized part of his job description was to be a stool pigeon for management. And I know one of the Giants players, I think Larry Doyle, said he was a really incompetent base coach.

This is an interesting feature of 19th century baseball, though. The fields were small and the seats were few and all close to the action. An extroverted and witty player like Latham or Mike Kelly could establish a rapport with his audience in a way no modern player possibly could. And when contemporaries start complaining about the language of the players -- well, they can sound very priggish sometimes, but if the spectators could hear most of what was said on the playing field today, the language would probably raise some concern and complaint.

Latham is a close 2d in career WAR by a 3B in the AA to Denny Lyons, and was the 2d best 3B in WAR in the AA in 1883 and 1884 and the best 3B in that category in 1886 and 1887.

[jalbright]

jjpm74 posted this about Toad Ramsey in the American Association:

Toad Ramsey's 13.4 WAR was good enough for 3rd in 1886 and his 8.4 in 1887 was good enough for 4th.

Unfortunately, Ramsey is only 13th in career WAR for pitchers in the history of the AA. I don't think it's enough.

[jalbright]

Made one small change to the rules: nominations are closed 12 hours before the election begins.

[dgarza]

So is this a Franchise HOF or more like a League HOF?

[jalbright]

This is for the the American Association "Franchise" HOF--that's how we treated the AA in this project.

[dgarza]

I'll throw out a few nominations...

Tim Keefe
Although he only played 2 seasons in the AA, they were some impressive seasons.
Between 1883-1884, Keefe accumulated 26.0 pWAR. Only Ed Morris and Silver King accumulated more during back-to-back seasons in the AA.

AA Seasonal Records
Tied 1st - pWAR - although did so in significantly less IPs
2nd - CG, IP, BF
Tied 3rd - GS

AA Career Records
1st - WHIP (min. 1000 IPs)
Tied 1st - ERA (min. 1000 IPs)
2nd - ERA+ (min. 1000 IPs)
6th - % (min. 1000 IPs)
10th - pWAR

Lead League
pWAR, WHIP, H/9, K/9, G, GS, IP, K, BF, Assists (all 1883)

Top 3 League
Between 1883-1884, over 20 different Top 3 placings.

Inducted into the Hall of Fame by Veteran's Committee as Player in 1964.