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  • Why Not Them?

    The following is a list of MLB players who were first ballot elections for the Progressive HoF, are not in the actual Hall of Fame, and are not on the BBWAA ballot.

    Dick Allen
    Ken Boyer
    Bill Dahlen
    Stan Hack
    Sherry Magee
    Minnie Minoso

    Treating each case individually, why do you think these players have not been elected?
    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

    - Alvin Dark

  • #2
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    Dick Allen
    Because he makes Michael Vick look like Mother Teresa. The rest should be in. This one is one of the biggest *******s in the history of baseball.

    Comment


    • #3
      Allen: Combative, retired at 35 so less than 2000 hits, no spectacular totals.
      Boyer: Like Allen, no outstanding totals
      Dahlen: Low BA, (and even though I doubt they conisdered it) low OPS+
      Hack: Low power numbers, Low Slugging Percentage
      Magee:I'm not seeing why not.
      Minoso: Didn't get a full season until 25, so low totals.

      Really, I think a lot of it is just not reaching the big totals (3000 or at least 2500 hits, 500 homeruns, etc.)
      “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

      "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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      • #4
        None of them hit magic milestone numbers. Many of them played at least a significant amount of time at 3B, which is a hybrid offensive/defensive position that has routinely been very hard to gain HOF acsess. Dahlen is a 19th century guy who was eligible at a time when defensive position scarcity was not a hot topic (and not a box score stuffer either).
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
          Magee:I'm not seeing why not.
          Magee's raw numbers are not that impressive until you take into account that he played his entire career during the dead ball era and that's why his OPS+ is 136. He also played mainly for the terrible Phillies, leaving the team just in time to not be part of their 1915 pennant. He was one of the best players in the NL for the 1910-1919 decade. but apparently the writers never figured it out.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
            Because he makes Michael Vick look like Mother Teresa. The rest should be in. This one is one of the biggest *******s in the history of baseball.
            Being an anti-social jerk>killing dogs due to lack of performance in an illegal activity?

            What exactly did Allen do that was so horrific? Did he beat up other players? Seduce the wives of teammates? Eat their children? Not tip the clubhouse crew?
            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
            Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
            Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
            Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
              Being an anti-social jerk>killing dogs due to lack of performance in an illegal activity?

              What exactly did Allen do that was so horrific? Did he beat up other players? Seduce the wives of teammates? Eat their children? Not tip the clubhouse crew?
              I second the Captain's comments. Allen was not at all perfect, but he was not the jerk that so many made/make him out to be. He was a guy who was put into some really bad situations in a bad environment, and got little/no help from his employer. Injuries compounded his problems, and kept him from accumulating eye popping numbers. Make no mistake, though- from the mid-60s through early 70s, Allen was on a level as a hitter with Mays, Aaron, FRobinson, Killebrew, McCovey.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                Allen: Combative, retired at 35 so less than 2000 hits, no spectacular totals.
                Boyer: Like Allen, no outstanding totals
                Dahlen: Low BA, (and even though I doubt they conisdered it) low OPS+
                Hack: Low power numbers, Low Slugging Percentage
                Magee:I'm not seeing why not.
                Minoso: Didn't get a full season until 25, so low totals.

                Really, I think a lot of it is just not reaching the big totals (3000 or at least 2500 hits, 500 homeruns, etc.)
                With Allen I really think it was the short career and in a low offensive period. If we put Allen into Greenberg's time and he had put up his relative rates, he would have gone .310/.420/.584 and he would have driven in about 1350 if his RBI went up with the run environment.Still, he only has 61 WAR. 57 in a 10 year period should put someone in but its not fantastic for a short career candidate.

                Dahlen had a 109 OPS+, which is right there with most hall of fame shortstops. I wonder how he was perceived in his time.

                I would not put in Boyer, Hack, Magee. Boyer did get a late start because of the military, and so I may reconsider. Through 1961 at least, 18 of the 19 guys to hit 300 home runs eventually went into the hall and when Boyer retired I bet that it would have been something like 23 out of 25.

                Minoso is in my borderline realm. He also just missed .300 and 2000 hits. He had a .307 average through 1500 games.

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                • #9
                  I find it interesting that so many of Allen`s former teammates such as Bob Gibson,Goose Goosage,Mike Schmidt,et al,all had nothing but good things to say about him.How much of a jerk could he have been?I remember him being a very fast and intelligent base runner.His power hitting was awesome.I think that his long ball hitting prowess would be even more legendary if he didn`t forsake batting practice.A power hitters`reputation is greatly enhanced by putting on a show in BP(and "practice makes perfect").I do remember seeing his worse game though.He was playing for the Cardinals,with his mother in attendance,and struck out 5 times in the game.

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                  • #10
                    Allen's WAR is hurt by his horrendous fielding numbers. He has -110 fielding runs and -10.6 defensive WAR, both easily the lowest all-time among first basemen, although those figures are for his total work, not what he did at first base. But he rates as an awful fielder at first, third, and left field, his three main positions. Did anyone here who saw him have the impression that he was so dreadful?
                    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                    - Alvin Dark

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                      The following is a list of MLB players who were first ballot elections for the Progressive HoF, are not in the actual Hall of Fame, and are not on the BBWAA ballot.

                      Dick Allen
                      Ken Boyer
                      Bill Dahlen
                      Stan Hack
                      Sherry Magee
                      Minnie Minoso

                      Treating each case individually, why do you think these players have not been elected?
                      Just for perspective, here's the numbers on these guys, along with their career WAR rank among all players.

                      CAREER WAR
                      64. Bill Dahlen (21) 75.9
                      143. Dick Allen (15) 61.2
                      161. Sherry Magee (16) 59.1
                      165. Ken Boyer (15) 58.4
                      202. Stan Hack (16) 54.8
                      221. Minnie Minoso (17) 52.8

                      CAREER WIN SHARES
                      Bill Dahlen - 393
                      Sherry Magee - 354
                      Dick Allen - 342
                      Stan Hack - 318
                      Minnie Minoso - 283
                      Ken Boyer - 280

                      BEST 3 WS SEASONS
                      Allen - 41-40-35
                      Magee - 38-36-31
                      Hack - 34-33-31
                      Dahlen - 32-31-27
                      Minoso - 32-29-29
                      Boyer - 31-28-27

                      The only guy here who should be an easy hall of famer is Dahlen, and he's also probably the best eligible player who is not yet in Cooperstown. Minoso's best case is the late start he got because he was playing in the Negro Leagues. If Dick Allen wasn't seen as a guy who wasted a lot of his talent, he would be in. With his numbers, if his rep was more like that of Puckett or Mattingly, he'd be in.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                        Allen's WAR is hurt by his horrendous fielding numbers. He has -110 fielding runs and -10.6 defensive WAR, both easily the lowest all-time among first basemen, although those figures are for his total work, not what he did at first base. But he rates as an awful fielder at first, third, and left field, his three main positions. Did anyone here who saw him have the impression that he was so dreadful?
                        Allen broke into professional ball as a shortstop. In the minors he bounced around among SS, 2B, and OF. Then, when he came to the Phillies he was thrown into third base, full time, with zero experience other than spring training. I saw Allen play a fair amount of third. He had the tools to be a respectable third baseman- he was athletic, had good reflexes, and had a strong arm, though it was erratic. I thought he'd grow into a good 3Ber, though after a few seasons he actually regressed and they moved him to LF. Somewhere along the line I believe he hurrt his throwing arm, which further complicated things. I think third base became a psychological thing with him- remember, he was getting lots of heat from a vicious Philly fan base. I saw him play left but honestly don't have any impression of it. As a first baseman, he was okay- nothing exceptional, as I recall, nothing horrible.

                        In hindsight, Allen, even though he was very athletic, probably would have been best served playing first base almost from the beginning as a professional.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                          As a first baseman, he was okay- nothing exceptional, as I recall, nothing horrible.

                          In hindsight, Allen, even though he was very athletic, probably would have been best served playing first base almost from the beginning as a professional.
                          That is also my memory of him and also my opinion as to sticking to first base.Allen actually messed up his throwing hand rather than his arm.He was pushing his defective car and his hand broke through the head light which tore up his hand real bad.I always regarded Allen and Bob Gibson as the best athletes in baseball during the 60`s and early 70`s.I don`t believe he is ever going into the HOF.He really doesn`t quite deserve it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                            That is also my memory of him and also my opinion as to sticking to first base.Allen actually messed up his throwing hand rather than his arm.He was pushing his defective car and his hand broke through the head light which tore up his hand real bad.I always regarded Allen and Bob Gibson as the best athletes in baseball during the 60`s and early 70`s.I don`t believe he is ever going into the HOF.He really doesn`t quite deserve it.
                            He's with Albert Belle as a great player who was considered a jerk by most writers and therefore never got much HOF support.
                            Sheffield is kind of in that class too, although with better career totals, but now they can keep him out too because of steroids.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                              He's with Albert Belle as a great player who was considered a jerk by most writers and therefore never got much HOF support.
                              Sheffield is kind of in that class too, although with better career totals, but now they can keep him out too because of steroids.
                              That reminds me,Bonds and Clemens will be coming up for HOF consideration within a year or so.That is going to be VERY interesting!These other names will fall by the wayside for a while.
                              Last edited by Nimrod; 03-30-2012, 12:16 PM.

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