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Negro League BBF HOF second chance

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  • jalbright
    replied
    Thanks to two votes in the last three hours of this election, we made the magic number of six, and were able to elect a few candidates. First the players:

    Players
    6 Bus Clarkson
    = ===============
    5 Chet Brewer
    5 Judy Johnson
    4 Newt Allen
    4 Walter Ball
    4 Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
    3 Sam Bankhead
    3 Francisco Coimbre


    Next, the contributors:

    6 Gus Greenlee
    6 Alex Pompez
    6 Frank Warfield
    = ===========
    3 Newt Allen
    3 Effa Manley

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Players

    Newt Allen-Y
    Walter Ball-Y
    Sam Bankhead-Y
    Chet Brewer-Y
    Bus Clarkson-Y
    Francisco Coimbre-Y
    Judy Johnson-Y
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-Y

    Contributors

    Newt Allen-Y
    Gus Greenlee-Y
    Effa Manley-N
    Alex Pompez-Y
    Frank Warfield-Y

    Leave a comment:


  • J W
    replied
    Players

    Newt Allen-N
    Walter Ball-N
    Sam Bankhead-N
    Chet Brewer-Y
    Bus Clarkson-Y
    Francisco Coimbre-N
    Judy Johnson-N
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-N

    Contributors

    Newt Allen-N
    Gus Greenlee-Y
    Effa Manley-Y (as representative of Effa & Abe)
    Alex Pompez-Y
    Frank Warfield-Y

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    less than 13 hours left in this election.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Just over three days left to go in this election as I type this, and we're two votes short of what's needed to elect anyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    I had this exchange in the Negro League forum:

    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    We're holding a second chance election for A "Hall of Fame" consisting only of Negro Leaguers and based solely on their performance in their leagues here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...-second-chance One key feature of the second chance elections is that it's a fixed list of players to consider, and except for guys who have retired but were active since 2010, they can only get in if someone states a case for them. The cases are available in the voting thread for voters to consider before casting their ballots.

    Anyway, dgarza posted a case for Newt Allen for the Negro Leagues, citing among other things that Allen managed the KC Monarchs to five championships. I have found some online sites which make that claim. OTOH, I've found other sites and some of my text resources which say that Allen only managed KC in 1941 (which was to a championship). I tend to think the latter is correct and the online stuff relies on a misreading of a resource, mainly because Lester and Clark's Negro Leagues Book lists all players and all managers for many years of the Negro Leagues, including the critical 1935-1940 stretch in question, and it only lists Allen for 1941. My first edition Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues edited by James Riley supports the Lester/Clark position.

    I know there's a book on the KC Monarch franchise which may provide a more definitive answer for which is correct, but I don't have it. Can anybody resolve it, and cite the source for their conclusion?
    Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    According to "The Kansas City Monarchs - Champions of Black Baseball" by Janet Bruce, Newt Allen was the Monarchs' captain in '35 and manager in '41. The same source says Sam Crawford managed in '35, Andy Cooper and Bullet Joe Rogan managed in '36, and then Cooper managed in '37, '39, and '40. Dizzy Dismukes took over after Allen in '42. I would assume Cooper probably managed in '38 and just wasn't listed as such. The only other nearby year for which I see a captain listed is '32 with Allen again, and there is no manager listed for that year.
    I quickly scanned the text for more detailed info, but the book isn't remotely chronological and I didn't have any luck.
    Hope this helps!

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    This group stands at four votes, 2 short of the total needed to elect anyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheMendozaLine
    replied
    Players

    Newt Allen-Y
    Walter Ball-Y
    Sam Bankhead-N
    Chet Brewer-Y
    Bus Clarkson-Y
    Francisco Coimbre-N
    Judy Johnson-Y
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-Y

    Contributors

    Newt Allen-N
    Gus Greenlee-Y
    Effa Manley-N
    Alex Pompez-Y
    Frank Warfield-Y

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Players
    Newt Allen-Y
    Walter Ball-Y
    Sam Bankhead-Y
    Chet Brewer-Y
    Bus Clarkson-Y
    Francisco Coimbre-Y
    Judy Johnson-Y
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-Y

    Contributors
    Newt Allen-Y
    Gus Greenlee-Y
    Effa Manley-Y
    Alex Pompez-Y
    Frank Warfield-Y

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Players
    Newt Allen-Y
    Walter Ball-Y
    Sam Bankhead-Y
    Chet Brewer-Y
    Bus Clarkson-Y
    Francisco Coimbre-Y
    Judy Johnson-Y
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-Y

    Contributors
    Newt Allen-Y
    Gus Greenlee-Y
    Effa Manley-N
    Alex Pompez-Y
    Frank Warfield-Y

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    I was confusing Allen with Bingo DeMoss. I'll bite on him as a player. I'm not sure about whether he or Andy Cooper managed in the late 30's to 1940, (some sources credit Allen with only 1941, after Cooper fell ill, others give him the five dgarza quoted), so if it weren't for his play, I'd pass on him as a contributor. As it is, I'll vote for him twice.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    The election is open. I'm going to post jjpm's PM to me with his votes, as I had agreed to this arrangement as he was not going to be available much this week. I will provide this service to others in similar circumstances.

    Originally posted by jjpm74

    Players
    Newt Allen N
    Walter Ball N
    Sam Bankhead N
    Chet Brewer N
    Bus Clarkson Y
    Francisco Coimbre N
    Judy Johnson Y
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe N

    Contributors
    Newt Allen N
    Gus Greenlee Y
    Effa Manley Y
    Alex Pompez Y
    Frank Warfield Y

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    That .287 average in the Negro Leagues doesn't translate well, and that causes me some hesitation on him as a player.
    I listed it as it IS different from the 1st source I was using, but it is rather close (.004, or less depending on what numbers were rounded up and what numbers were rounded down).Could be the difference of one source listing just 1 less season out of a long career. To me, both numbers are show me a similar batter.

    I didn't even wish to infer you didn't have sources,
    No, I didn't take it as such.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Nominations are closed.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    Both lists as in both Player and Contributor lists?
    I was seeing him as a Player with some Contributor pluses, but I can see it could go both ways.

    From what I can tell, he had a good def. rep. for sure, and his hitting wasn't great but probably decent for a middle IFer (I don't see any suggestions that he should be considered a poor batter).

    I was able to pull some archived info. from the National HOF website. :

    Born: May 19, 1901, in Austin, Tex.
    Died: June 9, 1988, in Cincinnati, Ohio
    Batted: Right Threw: Right Height: 5'8" Weight: 170 lbs.

    Played from 1923-1944, and in 1947, with a career average of .287. Played primarily at second base and shortstop for the Kansas City Monarchs.

    Played in four East-West All-Star games: 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1941.

    Had four hits in a game on 14 different occasions and twice had five hits. First time was on June 12, 1928 when he went 5-5 with three doubles and the second time was on August 4, 1940.

    Had two 19-game hitting streaks.

    Played six seasons in the California Winter League. Over 135 games batted .324 and is fifth all-time in doubles, twice leading the league. The League began in 1912 and ended in the 1940s and ran from October-February each year. One or more Negro teams played along with three to five white teams each year.

    Played 1924-25 and 1937-38 seasons in Cuba. During his first stint, hit .313 with 15 hits in 48 AB, and during the second he hit .269 with 47 hits in 175 AB.

    Player/manager of the Monarchs starting in 1937. Led the club to five Negro American League titles in six years.
    Known best for his strong defensive play and his leadership qualities. Allen was often chosen team captain.

    Played with the Monarchs in the 1924 and 1925 World Series and again in 1942 when they defeated the Homestead Grays.
    Played in exhibition games with white major league competition and hit right around .300
    That .287 average in the Negro Leagues doesn't translate well, and that causes me some hesitation on him as a player. However, I do like the managing qualification, and then you add in the long playing career, I'm pretty well sold on that combination.

    I didn't even wish to infer you didn't have sources, only that what you wrote conflicted to a degree with my memory. The most likely issue is my own memory, but we may be working on different sources, which might have significant differences.

    I think in this forum, the standard is that players are elected solely for their play, while contributors get the sum total of their work in the sport considered. It hasn't been perfectly followed, but the cases where we haven't have been cases where the guy was going to go much earlier as a contributor than as a player (Rube Foster would be a possible example). At this point in this project, this factor is meaningless, as they're going this round or not at all (unless they're very current retirees). I felt the dual listings is probably better than other arrangements at this point.

    Leave a comment:

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