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Ranking the HoF Player: 171-175

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    This election is over, here are the results:

    1) Bobby Wallace - 54 (46 points, 8 votes; 1 first place)
    2) Orlando Cepeda - 46 (38 points, 8 votes; 1 first place)
    3) Hugh Jennings - 44 (38 points, 6 votes; 3 first place)
    4) Willard Brown - 41 (36 points, 5 votes)
    5) Enos Slaughter - 39 (32 points, 7 votes)

    6) Hugh Duffy - 35 (28 points, 7 votes)
    7) Pete Hill - 35 (31 points, 4 votes; 3 first place)
    8) Mickey Welch - 35 (31 points, 4 votes)
    9) Jake Beckley - 33 (26 points, 7 votes)
    10) Bob Lemon - 26 (21 points, 5 votes)
    11) Bill Foster - 24 (20 points, 4 votes)
    12) Leon Day - 22 (19 points, 3 votes)
    13) Ray Dandridge - 20 (17 points, 3 votes)
    14) Red Faber - 19 (15 points, 4 votes)
    15) Sam Rice - 19 (16 points, 3 votes; 1 first place)
    16) Johnny Evers - 19 (17 points, 2 votes)
    17) Lefty Gomez - 17 (15 points, 2 votes)
    18) Jim Rice - 16 (13 points, 3 votes)
    19) Rollie Fingers - 16 (14 points, 2 votes; 1 first place)
    20) Chuck Klein - 16 (14 points, 2 votes)
    21) Phil Rizzuto - 15 (13 votes, 2 points; 1 first place)
    22) Frank Grant - 15 (13 votes, 2 points)
    t23) Nellie Fox - 14 (12 points, 2 votes)
    t23) Jose Mendez - 14 (12 points, 2 votes)
    t25) Tony Perez - 12 (10 points, 2 votes)
    t25) Addie Joss - 12 (10 points, 2 votes)
    27) Catfish Hunter - 10 (9 points, 1 vote)
    28) Hilton Smith - 9 (7 points, 2 votes)
    29) Bruce Sutter - 9 (8 points, 1 vote)
    30) Kiki Cuyler - 8 (7 points, 1 vote)
    t31) Heinie Manush - 6 (5 points, 1 vote)
    t31) Rabbit Maravnille - 6 (5 points, 1 vote)
    t31) Joe Sewell - 6 (5 points, 1 vote)
    34) Luis Aparicio - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post

    EDIT: Dropped Addie Joss and added Hughie Jennings.
    Smart move :-)

    Hughie has three of the twenty best seasons ever by a SS. (None for Jeter....LOL)

    20. Honus Wagner+ (34) 11.6 1908 R
    21. Robin Yount+ (26) 11.5 1982 R
    30. Cal Ripken+ (30) 11.0 1991 R
    31. Alex Rodriguez (24) 11.0 2000 R
    44. Honus Wagner+ (31) 10.6 1905 R
    49. Lou Boudreau+ (30) 10.5 1948 R
    68. Ernie Banks+ (28) 10.0 1959 R
    68. Honus Wagner+ (32) 10.0 1906 R
    68. Honus Wagner+ (33) 10.0 1907 R
    93. Ernie Banks+ (27) 9.7 1958 R
    113. Alex Rodriguez (20) 9.4 1996 R
    113. Honus Wagner+ (35) 9.4 1909 R
    125. Hughie Jennings+ (27) 9.3 1896 R
    125. Rico Petrocelli (26) 9.3 1969 R
    133. Cal Ripken+ (23) 9.2 1984 R
    142. Hughie Jennings+ (26) 9.1 1895 R
    142. Arky Vaughan+ (23) 9.1 1935 L
    154. Honus Wagner+ (30) 9.0 1904 R
    172. Hughie Jennings+ (29) 8.8 1898 R
    196. Joe Cronin+ (23) 8.6 1930 R
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 04-24-2012, 11:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheMendozaLine
    replied
    1. Pete Hill
    2. Mickey Welch
    3. Orlando Cepeda
    4. Jake Beckley
    5. Jose Mendez
    6. Sam Rice
    7. Addie Joss
    8. Bobby Wallace
    9. Willie Foster
    10. Hughie Jennings

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Election ends tomorrow.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    1. Phil Rizzuto
    2. Johnny Evers
    3. Bobby Wallace
    4. Enos Slaughter
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Rabbit Maranville
    7. Hughie Jennings
    8. Red Faber
    9. Hugh Duffy
    10. Sam Rice

    In queue: Chuck Klein, Pete Hill, Leon Day, Bruce Sutter

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    It's As for your current post, we could do what you suggest, but I wonder how accurate it would be. Obviously it's the best we could do in an otherwise concluded project, but I think averaging well after the fact would produce a different result than if we had to consider and compare the player to others as we progressed.
    Maybe, but with the small number of poarticipants here, the results could easily change with the current method if one voter misses a week, or a new voter comes in.

    What you could do is to try an experiment and have the voters take a player who is not eligible for the project (Dahlen, Rose, Jackson, Raines, Mullane, etc...) and each voter say where they think the player should rank, and then average the votes and see how it works out.

    For instance, if I was ranking Raines I would put him at #125, below Wells but above Torriente.

    124) Willie Wells
    125) Cristobal Torriente

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
    XX, what do you think of this idea?

    We'll be done with this project before the next Cooperstown inductees. How about we do this with whoever gets inducted in future years.

    Let's say that Biggio gets in. We would each look at our list as it ended up and say where we think he should rank, and then the average of our individual rankings will be where he ends up. He would be inserted (let's say at #145) and the rest of the list would be adjusted. Then we would move on to the next inductee (let's say Schilling) and do the same for him.
    It's interesting, I typed a two paragraph response yesterday to your previous post and thought it got posted, but I don't see it. Hmm, that's annoying. I basically said that I think people (perhaps including myself) still have a hard time conceptualizing the DH and putting it on equal footing with defensive positions, and that my personal feeling is that while every other positional player has the same role as DH - hitting - a DH doesn't have that extra defensive element that positional players have (I also noted this wasn't meant to be an anti-DH comment, just my view on why I look at a DH a little differently).

    I then wrote that Frank Thomas would be a difficult case. With Paul Molitor he played more than half his career in the field and did so reasonably well, and thus I think it's reasonable to list him at a defensive position. With Edger Martinez, the vast majority of his career was at a DH and thus if he gets in, it will be almost entirely because of his DH production and thus there's little question that he should be a DH. Thomas isn't so clear cut. Like Molitor, and unlike Martinez, Thomas's fielding to DH split is fairly close, but unlike Molitor, Thomas did play more games at DH. The fact that Thomas was a mediocre fielding 1Bman and was really interchangeably a mediocre fielding 1Bman and a DH from the very beginning of his career, supports putting him at DH. On the other hand, he did play nearly 1000 games at 1B and the majority of his best seasons came while playing mostly full time at 1B, so listing Thomas at 1B would be an acknowledgment that for nearly half his career he did man a defensive position (unlike Martinez) and was one of the most productive all time at that position while he was there. This last point I find particularly compelling because the Hall of Fame is about honoring and comparing players across the eras. For posterity, I would be concerned that listing Thomas at DH might cause future generations to overlook the fact that for a significant portion of his career, Thomas was one of the most productive 1Bmen in the game's long history. Again, this speaks to the problem many might have in conceptualizing and respecting the DH, but listing him at 1B may help him receive greater respect long-term because of the longer history of the position. On the other hand again, that also wouldn't accurately capture his career. So this all being said, I really don't know how I'd list Thomas at this point as there are compelling arguments both ways, and fortunately I don't have to make that decision right now.

    As for your current post, we could do what you suggest, but I wonder how accurate it would be. Obviously it's the best we could do in an otherwise concluded project, but I think averaging well after the fact would produce a different result than if we had to consider and compare the player to others as we progressed.

    Once this project ends though, I've been thinking about doing it again but opening it up to all players while still using the overall Hall of Fame number. The Hall currently has 236 players, so the next project would simply be to rank the 236 most worthy players regardless if they are in or out. Plus, since the next project will overlap the next BBWAA election, newly eligible players in the next election will be immediately eligible for the next project and should any new players be elected to the Hall next year, I'd simply increase the total number for 236 to whatever the new total is. At the end, we'd then have the two projects to compare to each other.

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    XX, what do you think of this idea?

    We'll be done with this project before the next Cooperstown inductees. How about we do this with whoever gets inducted in future years.

    Let's say that Biggio gets in. We would each look at our list as it ended up and say where we think he should rank, and then the average of our individual rankings will be where he ends up. He would be inserted (let's say at #145) and the rest of the list would be adjusted. Then we would move on to the next inductee (let's say Schilling) and do the same for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    1. Orlando Cepeda
    2. Catfish Hunter
    3. Bruce Sutter
    4. Jim Rice
    5. Tony Perez
    6. Bob Lemon
    7. Rollie Fingers
    8. Leon Day
    9. Ray Dandridge
    10. Luis Aparicio

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    It doesn't ignore that there hasn't been a DH for the past 40 years, just reflecting the reality that there hasn't been a player elected who was very clearly a DH for his career. If Edgar Martinez had been elected, I think there would be little question that he'd be listed as a DH.
    Why is it that DH is the only position in the lineup where we don't simply go by where the player played the most games at?

    Frank Thomas played DH more than he played 1B. Where will you put him?

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Okay, but by not listing him at DH the overall project ignores that there's been a DH now for 40 years. I would think that acknowledging that aspect of the game would be more important than showing that one player did play defensive positions.

    Here's what his baseball-Ref entry says:

    Paul Molitor Paul Leo Molitor (The Ignitor)

    Positions: Designated Hitter, Third Baseman and Second Baseman

    It does look like his best WAR years were at 3B.
    It doesn't ignore that there hasn't been a DH for the past 40 years, just reflecting the reality that there hasn't been a player elected who was very clearly a DH for his career. If Edgar Martinez had been elected, I think there would be little question that he'd be listed as a DH.

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    It speaks to the fact that for the majority of his career, he did play a defensive position. In any event, I'm leaving him at 3B.
    Okay, but by not listing him at DH the overall project ignores that there's been a DH now for 40 years. I would think that acknowledging that aspect of the game would be more important than showing that one player did play defensive positions.

    Here's what his baseball-Ref entry says:

    Paul Molitor Paul Leo Molitor (The Ignitor)

    Positions: Designated Hitter, Third Baseman and Second Baseman

    It does look like his best WAR years were at 3B.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
    How does listing Molitor at 3B show that he had defensive versatility?
    It speaks to the fact that for the majority of his career, he did play a defensive position. In any event, I'm leaving him at 3B.

    EDIT: I should add that in deciding to leave a player's primary team off, it wasn't just about disagree with the Hall, it had more to do with there being a greater arbitrariness in general in pinpointing a player to a specific team (especially with Negro Leaguers). This comes from my experience in running the progressive project. Decades are also tough, and I almost didn't include them here (and I think I've already changed one or two players decades based on comments).
    Last edited by DoubleX; 04-19-2012, 08:47 AM.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
    He played more games at DH than 3B. The rule is now in its 40th year.
    I just don't like that the hall of fame deems it necessary to figure out what position and team a player officially goes in for.

    Leave a comment:


  • SavoyBG
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    The Hall of Fame lists him at 3B so I list him at 3B for this project (though I concede, by this logic I should move Ernie Banks and Rod Carew to 1B). Molitor did also play over 300 more total games in the field than at DH, so I don't think it's inappropriate to list him at a defensive position as a way of acknowledging that the majority of his career was spent in the field and was done so with some defensive versatility.

    I was going to list players by team as well, but I have some very strong disagreements with a few of the Hall's player designations (i.e. Nolan Ryan with the Rangers, Reggie Jackson with the Yankees), so I decided to leave it out.
    So if you agree with the hall you list it (Molitor at 3B), but if you disagree with the hall, you don't list it (Ryan-Rangers). Which means you are not going by what the hall says at all, but by what you think personally.

    How does listing Molitor at 3B show that he had defensive versatility?

    Leave a comment:

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