Defunct NL teams BBF franchise HOF second chance election

[jalbright]

This will be one of three second chance round elections this week. What we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. The elections will only be open for a week--but there will be at least three or four days for discussion and new nominations. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. The deadline for suggesting nominees is twelve hours before the election begins.


In this case, the election will not begin until Saturday, April 28 at 7 am EDT, and will end at 7 am EDT May 5. Nominations close 12 hours before the election begins, or April 27 at 7 pm EDT. Ballots not cast within the stated election time frame will not count.

The Defunct NL teams have the following already inducted:

Inducted Players (19): Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, Paul Hines, Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, Jim McCormick, John McGraw, Ed McKean, Hardy Richardson, Charlie Radbourn, Monte Ward, Deacon White, Cy Young, Chief Zimmer

Inducted Contributors: Bob Ferguson, Ned Hanlon

The list of nominees at present is:

Players
Fred Clarke
Fred Dunlap
Sadie McMahon
Jack Rowe
Joe Start
Sam Thompson

Contributors
Frank Bancroft
Jack Chapman
Patsy Tebeau

[jalbright]

I'm going to include the original master list, to help in choosing any additional nominees:

The players are broken into pitchers and position players, with a list of the teams that fit this category.

Pitchers
Lady Baldwin Det
Henry Boyle ind/StL Maroons
George Bradley Cle/Pro/Tro
Pete Conway Det/Buf/KC
Bert Cunningham Lou
Nig Cuppy Cle
One Arm Daily Was/Buf/Cle/StL Maroons
Jim Devlin Lou
Charlie Getzien Det/Cle/Ind
Henry Gruber Det/Cle
Egyptian Healy Ind/Was/Bal/Lou/StL Maroons
George Hemming Lou/Bal/Cle
Tim Keefe Tro
Al Maul Was/Bal
Sadie McMahon Bal
Win Mercer Was
Hank O'Day Was
Lee Richmond Wor/Pro
Dupee Shaw Was/Pro/Det
Scott Stratton Lou
Charlie Sweeney Pro/StL Maroons
Mickey Welch Tro
Jim Whitney Was/KC/Ind
Stump Wiedman Buf/Det/KC

Position players
Charlie Abbey Was
Charley Bassett Pro/KC/Ind
Harry Blake Cle
Steve Brodie Bal
Tom Brown Lou/Was/Ind
Cliff Carroll Pro/Was
Ed Cartwright Was
Fred Clarke Lou
Billy Clingman Lou
Roger Connor Tro
George Davis Cle
Gene DeMontreville Was/Bal
Jerry Denny Pro/Ind/Cle/Lou/StL Maroons
Jim Donnelly Was/Ind/Bal/KC/Det
Tommy Dowd Was/Cle
Fred Dunlap Cle/Det/StL Maroons
Buck Ewing Tro/Cle
Jake Evans Tro/Cle/Wor
Duke Farrell Was
Jack Farrell Pro/Was/Syr
Bob Ferguson Har/Tro
Davy Force Buf/Was/Ath
Barney Gilligan Pro/Cle/Was
Pete Hotaling Cle/Wor
Dummy Hoy Lou/Was
Arthur Irwin Wor/Pro/Was
Bill Joyce Was
Connie Mack Was
Jimmy McAleer Cle
Chippy McGarr Cle
Jack McGeachey Det/Ind
Deacon McGuire Was/Det
Mike Muldoon Cle
George Myers Buf/Ind/ StL Maroons
John O'Brien Lou/Was/Bal
Jack O'Connor Cle
Jim O'Rourke Pro/Buf/Was
Fred Pfeffer Lou/Tro
Bill Phillips Cle
Blondie Purcell Buf/Bal/Syr/Cle
Joe Quinn Was/Cle/Bal/StL Maroons
Paul Radford Was/Pro/Cle/KC
Heinie Reitz Bal/Was
Wilbert Robinson Bal
Jack Rowe Buf/Det
Emmett Seery Ind/Lou/StL Maroons
Kip Selbach Was
Orator Shaffer Ind/Cle/Buf/StL Maroons
Billy Shindle Bal/Det
Joe Start Pro/Har/Was
Patsy Tebeau Cle

[jalbright]

Paul Wendt posted the following three cases for nominees for the defunct NL teams:

Frank Bancroft, Wor/Det/Cle/Pro/Ind [founding manager/gm Wor & Det, winning manager Pro, ?John Brush rhm Ind?]

Jack Chapman, Lou/Mil/Wor/Det/Buf/Lou manager

Patsy Tebeau Cle [captain/manager]

[jalbright]

jjpm74 started a case for Joe Start among the defunct NL stars with this:

Joe Start: Start was one of the best players for the Providence Grays despite the fact that he was in his late 30s by the time he joined the team. His offense and defense were both well above average in those years. He also helped define what it was to be a first baseman.

I added this, after a correction by Paul Wendt:

Joe Start did well for his age (in his 30s when the NL started): 3d in WAR in 1877, 9th in 1879 and 1881, and 4th in 1882.

(ed: among all players)

He was with the Cubs in 1878, so that doesn't count as a defunct team. Otherwise from 1877-1885, he played for such teams.
He has the third best WAR among 1B for the period, behind Anson and Connor but ahead of Brouthers, despite his advanced age;
He was the best 1B in WAR in the NL in 1879; 2d in that category in 1877, 1880 and 1881; 3d in 1884 and in a virtual tie for 3d with Connor in 1882.

[jalbright]

jjpm started a case for Jack Rowe in the defunct NL teams with this:

Jack Rowe: One of the "big 4" of the Buffalo Bisons. We have already elected the other 3 of those 4: Brouthers, Richardson, White. Rowe deserves is spot alongside those three. Additionally, Rowe had an all star level season in 1884, and was second only to Dan Brouthers among position players that year in WAR. He also posted 2 MVP level seasons for the Detroit Wolverines in 1886 and 1887. If the other 3 are in, Rowe deserves to be as well.

I added this:

Jack Rowe had 4 seasons in the top 10 in WAR: 3d in 1881, 10th in 1884, 8th in 1886, and 7th in 1887.

He was primarily a catcher in 1880-85, and a shortstop in 1886-88 with several now defunct NL teams. Taking all shortstops and catchers from that period, he's fourth in WAR for the period, behind Glasscock, Ewing and Bennett. Looked at on a season by season basis, he does quite well:

He was the second best catcher in the NL in 1881, 1882 and 1884. He was the second best shortstop in 1886, and third best in both 1887 and 1888, both in both 1887 and 1888 he missed second place by a mere 0.1 WAR, or about 1 run.

[jalbright]

I made this case for Fred Dunlap to be honored among the defunct NL teams:

Fred Dunlap had 2 seasons in the top 10 in WAR in the NL: 5th in 1880 and 3d in 1881.

(ed.: among position players).

Dunlap played for defunct NL teams from 1880-1887 except for 1884 when he was a ridiculously dominant player in the UA. Looking just at WAR in the NL from 1880-87, Dunlap is second despite getting no credit for 1884.
He was the best 2B in the NL in WAR each season from 1880-1882 and 1885 and 1886.

[dgarza]

Please let me know if I'm missing anything, but...

Cy Young? Charley Radbourn?

Do I even need to state a case for them?

[jalbright]

Please let me know if I'm missing anything, but...

Cy Young? Charley Radbourn?

Do I even need to state a case for them?

Those two were inadvertently omitted from the original list (along with Charlie Bennett and Jack Glasscock). That's been fixed.

The list in post #2 has all the players from the original list not yet elected.

[dgarza]

Those two were inadvertently omitted from the original list (along with Charlie Bennett and Jack Glasscock). That's been fixed.

Thanks. Those were 2 others I was wondering about as well.

[dgarza]

Sam Thompson
DET record:
.327/.375/.500
157 OPS+
14.6 WAR


Helped to soundly defeat St. Louis in the 1887 post-season Series.

                                                                                                                
Year   Age  Tm Lg Series Opp Rslt G PA AB R  H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
                                                                                                                
1887    27 DTN NL     WS STL    W 0 61 58 8 21  2  0  2   7     5  3  3 .362 .393 .500 .893               29   0
1 WS                              0 61 58 8 21  2  0  2   7     5  3  3 .362 .393 .500 .893               29   0

Led League in :
AVG (1887)
SLG (1887)
At Bats (1887)
Hits (1887)
Total Bases (1887)
Triples (1887)
RBIs (1887)
Runs Created (1887)

DET NL Team Career Records (200 game min) :
2nd in SLG, OPS+, Triples, ISO, WAR Runs Batting
3rd in AVG, OBP, WAR, HRs, RBIs

NL Career Records through 1888 (200 game min) :
2nd in SLG, ISO
4th in AVG
5th in OBP, OPS+

Inducted into the Hall of Fame by Veteran's Committee as Player in 1974.

He was inducted into the Indiana Baseball Hall of Fame in 1979.

[dgarza]

Fred Clarke
LOU stats :
.334/.398/.448
128 OPS+
20.3 WAR

Player/manager 1897-1899

LOU team career records (200 game min) :
1st in HRs, Stolen Bases, OBP
2nd in WAR, Walks, AVG
3rd in Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, RBIs

Led League in :
OPS+ (1897)

Inducted into the Hall of Fame by Old Timers Committee as Player in 1945.

[dgarza]

Sadie McMahon
BLN
88-64
.579 %
119 ERA+
pWAR 19.0

Holds BLN NL Team Records for most :
pWAR, Wins, Stikeouts

[jalbright]

less than 7 hours left for nominations.

[jalbright]

Nominations are now closed.

[jalbright]

This election is now open.

My ballot

Players
Fred Clarke-Y
Fred Dunlap-Y
Sadie McMahon-Y
Jack Rowe-Y
Joe Start-Y
Sam Thompson-N

Contributors
Frank Bancroft-N
Jack Chapman-N
Patsy Tebeau -N