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Cardinals second chance election, BBF HOF franchise project

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  • Cardinals second chance election, BBF HOF franchise project

    This will be one of three second chance round elections this week. What we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. The elections will only be open for a week--but there will be at least three or four days for discussion and new nominations. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. The deadline for suggesting nominees is twelve hours before the election begins.

    In this case, the election will not begin until Saturday, May 12 at 7 am EDT, and will end at 7 am EDT May 19. Nominations close 12 hours before the election begins, or May 11 at 7 pm EDT. Ballots not cast within the stated election time frame will not count.


    The Cardinals have the following already inducted:

    - Inducted Players (24): Jim Bottomey, Ken Boyer, Harry Brecheen, Lou Brock,Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean, Jim Edmonds, Curt Flood, Frankie Frisch, Bob Gibson, Keith Hernandez, Rogers Hornsby, Larry Jackson, Ray Lankford, Marty Marion, Joe Medwick, Johnny Mize, Stan Musial, Tip O’Neill, Red Schoendienst, Enos Slaughter, Ted Simmons, Ozzie Smith

    - Inducted Contributors (4): Whitey Herzog, Tony LaRussa, Branch Rickey, Billy Southworth

    The list of nominees at present is:

    Players
    Steve Carlton
    Mort Cooper
    Bob Forsch
    Dave Foutz
    Jesse Haines
    George Hendricks
    Silver King
    Ed Konetchy
    Whitey Kurowski
    Max Lanier
    Pepper Martin
    Willie McGee
    Mark McGwire
    Terry Moore
    Howie Pollet
    Lee Smith
    Bruce Sutter
    Garry Templeton
    Joe Torre
    Bill White

    Contributors
    Jack Buck
    August "Gussie" Busch
    Harry Caray
    Alfred Spink
    Chris von der Ahe
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-11-2012, 08:21 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Here's a case for Jesse Haines with the Cardinals, made by DoubleX:

    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    Jesse Haines [is] second in both IP and wins with the Cardinals, and his 109 ERA+ should be decent enough to merit induction here.
    He later added this:
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    It really seems that Jesse Haines is suffering from the stigma of being a poor Cooperstown selection. He was a staple of the Cardinals rotation for 15 years, as he is one of only two pitchers with the Cardinals with 3,000+ IP and one of only with 200+ wins. He also pitched well in four World Series, posting a 1.67 ERA in 32 IP. His 109 ERA+ isn't great, but in the context of just this franchise but should be good enough given his longevity with the franchise, and I don't think any pitcher contributed more to the Cardinals save Bob Gibson.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      Paul Wendt made this post on behalf of Alfred Spink as a contributor for the Cardinals:

      No one mentioned local sportswriter Al Spink for the Cardinals.

      In O.P. Caylor the Reds, too, have a plausible sportswriter candidate. Spink and Caylor organized semipro teams in 1881 and helped organize the current ballclubs for the American Association 1882 inaugural season. St Louis and Cincinnati led the organization of the new circuit. Both Spink and Caylor are sometimes called founders of the clubs and the league and both were early club officers.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        August "Gussie" Busch

        Principal owner on behalf of his brewing company Anheuser-Busch from 1953 to 1989. The Cardinals were more often than not contenders under his watch, winning six NL pennants and going 3-3 in World Series play. His Busch Stadium, finished in 1966 and topped off with $3 mil out of his own pocket, helped revitalize downtown St. Louis. Busch was certainly one of the most powerful and influential owners in the sport, and he's on my short list of "great" baseball owners of the 20th century.
        http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

        Comment


        • #5
          Willie McGee

          Years with team: 1982-1990, 1996-1999
          Main position(s): CF, RF
          Plate Appearances: 6223
          Team WAR: 23.3
          Honors with team: 3 gold gloves, 4 all star appearances, NL MVP 1985

          Willie McGee was one of the key cogs to Whitey Herzog's teams in the 1980s. He was not the best at hitting (save for his MVP 1985 season) but made up for it with stellar defense and base running. He participated in three World Series with the Cardinals (1982, 1985, 1987) and was a major contributor in all three postseasons.
          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

          Comment


          • #6
            Bob Forsch

            Years with team: 1974-1987
            Main position(s): SP
            Batters Faced: 11088
            Team Statistics: 163-127, ERA+ ~100, 18.5 pWAR
            Honors with team:

            Forsch spent a long time with the Cardinals accumulating wins at a very good .562 clip. He also participated in the 1982, 1985 and 1987 World Series under Herzog. His 163 career wins with the Cardinals are third behind only Gibson and Haines. He is also the only Cardinal to pitch two no-hitters. Forsch was respected enough with the franchise and in the community to be selected to throw the first pitch in game seven of the 2011 World Series; shortly thereafter, he died at age 61.
            http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by J W View Post
              Willie McGee

              He was not the best at hitting (save for his MVP 1985 season)
              Depends on what you mean. He didn't have a lot of power and drew few walks, but he won 2 batting titles, batted .300+ 4x and batted .290+ 7x. STL AVG is .294.

              Comment


              • #8
                Joe Torre

                Years with team: 1969-1974
                Main position(s): 3B, 1B
                Plate Appearances: 3909
                Team Statistics: 1062 hits, .308/.382/.458, 133 OPS+, 21.2 WAR
                Honors with team: 4 all star appearances, NL MVP 1971

                Torre spent a good bit of time with the Braves before being traded to the Cardinals for Orlando Cepeda. The Cards had him permanently out of the catcher spot by 1971, when he won the NL MVP with a .363 average and 171 OPS+.
                http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ed Konetchy

                  Years with team: 1907-1913
                  Main position(s): 1B
                  Plate Appearances: 4152
                  Team Statistics: 1013 hits, .283/.362/.409, 131 OPS+, 25.9 WAR
                  Honors with team:

                  Konetchy started his fine career in St. Louis and put up most of his best seasons there. He was a steady bat at 1B and garnered MVP votes in 1911 and 1912. For three straight years (1909-1911) he was the Cards' best player in terms of WAR. Eventually he was traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates as part of an eight player deal.
                  http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bill White
                    .298/.357/.472
                    119 OPS+
                    25.4 WAR

                    All-Star Games
                    1959-1
                    1959-2
                    1960-1 *
                    1960-2 *
                    1961-1 (1B)
                    1961-2 (1B)
                    1963 (1B)
                    1964 *

                    Gold Gloves
                    1960 NL (1B)
                    1961 NL (1B)
                    1962 NL (1B)
                    1963 NL (1B)
                    1964 NL (1B)
                    1965 NL (1B)

                    Total Zone Runs as 1B
                    1956 NL 13 (1st)
                    1961 NL 6 (1st)
                    1962 NL 6 (1st)
                    1965 NL 12 (1st)
                    1966 NL 10 (1st)

                    Cardinal Career Records :
                    9th in HRs

                    1959-1965, NL, 1B
                    Most Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Walks, Times On Base

                    White earned a sports program on KMOX radio in St. Louis while he was still playing for the Cardinals.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      About a day and a half left for nominations.
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mark McGwire
                        .270/.427/.683
                        180 OPS+
                        220 HRs
                        473 RBIs

                        All-Star Games
                        1998 (1B)
                        1999 (1B)
                        2000

                        Silver Sluggers
                        1998 NL (1B)

                        MVP (yr lg (rk, shr))
                        1997 NL (16, 2%)
                        1998 NL (2, 61%)
                        1999 NL (5, 26%)

                        1999 ML Lou Gehrig Memorial Award

                        Led League in :
                        Offensive WAR (1998)
                        OBP (1998)
                        SLG (1998)
                        OPS (1998)
                        HRs (1998,1999)
                        RBIs (1999)
                        Runs Created (1998)
                        Walks (1998)
                        OPS+ (1998,1999)
                        Extra Base Hits (1998)
                        Times on Base (1998)

                        Cardinal Career Record (500 game min.) :
                        1st in OPS+, SLG, OBP, ISO
                        6th in HRs

                        Cardinal Seasonal Record (100 game min.) :
                        1st in HRs

                        A portion of Interstate 70 in St. Louis and near Busch Stadium was named "Mark McGwire Highway" to honor his 70 home run achievement, along with his various good works for the city.

                        STL hitting coach.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Second chance? Haven't we already had 3-4 rounds?
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Whitey Kurowski
                            Code:
                                                                                                        
                            Year   Age Tm Lg   G   R   H  2B 3B  HR RBI  BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS OPS+
                            9 Yrs            916 518 925 162 32 106 529 369 332 .286 .366 .455 .821  125
                            22.6 WAR

                            All-Star Games
                            1943
                            1944 *
                            1945--not played
                            1946 (3B)
                            1947 *

                            Top 3 Cardinal 3B All Time
                            Code:
                                                                                                                     
                            Rk             Player WAR/pos From   To    G   R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB   BA  OBP   SLG
                            1           Ken Boyer    54.4 1955 1965 1667 988 1855 269 61 255 1001  97 .293 .356  .475
                            2         Scott Rolen    24.4 2002 2007  661 421  678 173 13 111  453  33 .286 .370  .510
                            3     Whitey Kurowski    22.6 1941 1949  916 518  925 162 32 106  529  19 .286 .366  .455
                            4       Ken Oberkfell    15.9 1977 1984  724 295  682 118 28  11  210  45 .292 .364  .381
                            5        Arlie Latham    15.0 1883 1896  847 832  982 134 48  11  250 369 .266 .319  .338
                            Top 3 NL 3B of the 1940s
                            Code:
                                                                                                             
                            Rk             Player WAR/pos    G   R    H  2B 3B  HR RBI SB   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS
                            1         Bob Elliott    37.9 1455 803 1563 291 80 109 903 54 .292 .377 .437 .814
                            2           Stan Hack    31.3 1000 639 1155 200 32  29 272 65 .303 .401 .394 .796
                            3     Whitey Kurowski    22.6  916 518  925 162 32 106 529 19 .286 .366 .455 .821
                            4           Pinky May    10.1  531 161  477  75  8   2 153  9 .272 .356 .328 .684
                            5        Grady Hatton     9.7  532 276  516  97 18  50 259 24 .264 .358 .409 .767
                            After retiring, Kurowski became a minor league manager in the St. Louis Cardinals chain from 1950 to 1962.
                            His teams did fairly well, being League Champs 3 times.
                            http://www.baseball-reference.com/bu...agerial_Record

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                              Second chance? Haven't we already had 3-4 rounds?
                              They had three rounds, IIRC, and elected the names listed in the first post. Some franchises, like the Cubs, clearly ended prematurely. I am allowing those who actually work up a case for a candidate to have that candidate considered. You may, if you wish, rebut any or all of the candidates. You also may post a ballot supporting no one, which given the 75% requirement is a powerful tool if you don't want any more. Like it or not, this is the project's Veteran's Committee. You may not like it, but it's generated more commentary and discussion that all the other rounds for all franchises combined. Truth is, we had regrettably little discussion before this round. By forcing people to present a case to get their candidates considered, we've gotten a great deal more discussion.

                              I've caught objections that I'm not supporting enough candidates, so I might as well have the opportunity to catch them on the grounds I'm being too lenient. Truth is, if you submit a blank ballot, you'd only need one or two others to stop any one candidate--and there aren't a ton of candidates we're unanimous about at this point. Like I said to the other objections--I'm willing to let the voters decide.
                              Last edited by jalbright; 05-10-2012, 01:22 PM.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment

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