Ranking the HoF Player: 192-195

[DoubleX]

Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

Election Format: Voters are to submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
- Tiebreakers: Tiebreakers at the end of an election will be decided in the following order: 1) Total ballot appearances in that election; 2) Total points in that election irrespective of number of ballots; 3) Number of first place votes in that election; 4) Finish in previous election. Players that lose a tiebreaker for the fifth spot in an election will be voted in as the sixth player in that election, with the next election to elect just four players.

Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

Results
1) Babe Ruth
2) Willie Mays
3) Ty Cobb
4) Ted Williams
5) Hank Aaron
6) Honus Wagner
7) Walter Johnson
8) Lou Gehrig
9) Cy Young
10) Stan Musial
11) Mickey Mantle
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Jackie Robinson
14) Tris Speaker
15) Josh Gibson
16) Eddie Collins
17) Satchel Paige
18) Grover Alexander
19) Frank Robinson
20) Joe DiMaggio
21) Oscar Charleston
22) Mike Schmidt
23) Lefty Grove
24) Tom Seaver
25) Cap Anson
26) Christy Mathewson
27) Rickey Henderson
28) Jimmie Foxx
29) Nap Lajoie
30) Joe Morgan
31) Johnny Bench
32) Mel Ott
33) Warren Spahn
34) Yogi Berra
35) Cal Ripken
36) George Brett
37) Pop Lloyd
38) Kid Nichols
39) Eddie Mathews
40) Bob Feller
41) Roberto Clemente
42) Bob Gibson
43) Joe Williams
44) Carl Yastrzemski
45) Hank Greenberg
46) Dan Brouthers
47) Steve Carlton
48) Sandy Koufax
49) Ed Delahanty
50) Johnny Mize
51) Al Kaline
52) Turkey Stearnes
53) Wade Boggs
54) Charlie Gehringer
55) Mickey Cochrane
56) Reggie Jackson
57) Arky Vaughan
58) Roger Connor
59) Nolan Ryan
---Top 25% Cutoff---
60) Robin Yount
61) Rod Carew
62) Tony Gwynn
63) Carl Hubbell
64) Roy Campanella
65) Ernie Banks
66) Sam Crawford
67) Duke Snider
68) George Davis
69) King Kelly
70) John Ward
71) Eddie Murray
72) Bullet Rogan
73) Harmon Killebrew
74) Buck Ewing
75) Billy Hamilton
76) Gaylord Perry
77) Carlton Fisk
78) Paul Waner
79) Juan Marichal
80) Al Simmons
81) John Clarkson
82) Martin Dihigo
83) Robin Roberts
84) Willie McCovey
85) Frankie Frisch
86) Phil Niekro
87) Eddie Plank
88) Gary Carter
89) Whitey Ford
90) Tim Keefe
91) Mordecai Brown
92) Luke Appling
93) Brooks Robinson
94) Ferguson Jenkins
95) Willie Stargell
96) Frank Baker
97) Jim Palmer
98) Joe Cronin
99) Bill Dickey
100) Jesse Burkett
101) Harry Heilmann
102) Fred Clarke
103) Buck Leonard
104) Hoyt Wilhelm
105) Ed Walsh
106) Bert Blyleven
107) Barry Larkin
108) Gabby Hartnett
109) Dave Winfield
110) George Sisler
111) Mule Suttles
112) Joe Medwick
113) Jim O'Rourke
114) Jud Wilson
115) Ozzie Smith
116) Paul Molitor
117) Charles Radbourn
118) Monte Irvin
---Top 50% Cutoff---
119) Ryne Sandberg
120) Roberto Alomar
121) Ron Santo
122) Billy Williams
123) Willie Keeler
124) Willie Wells
125) Cristobal Torriente
126) Dennis Eckersley
127) Zack Wheat
128) Larry Doby
129) Amos Rusie
130) Goose Goslin
131) Bill Terry
132) Don Drysdale
133) Dizzy Dean
134) Lou Brock
135) Rube Waddell
136) Cool Papa Bell
137) Hal Newhouser
138) Joe Gordon
139) Kirby Puckett
140) Lou Boudreau
141) Ralph Kiner
142) Rich Gossage
143) Dazzy Vance
144) Pee Wee Reese
145) Sam Thompson
146) Pud Galvin
147) Billy Herman
148) Biz Mackey
149) Louis Santop
150) Early Wynn
151) Stan Coveleski
152) Edd Roush
153) Don Sutton
154) Ted Lyons
155) Frank Chance
156) Max Carey
157) Jimmy Collins
158) Earl Averill
159) Richie Ashburn
160) Andre Dawson
161) Bobby Doerr
162) Pie Traynor
163) Elmer Flick
164) Joe McGinnity
165) Joe Kelley
166) Roger Bresnahan
167) Jim Bunning
168) Ray Brown
169) Red Ruffing
170) Bid McPhee
171) Bobby Wallace
172) Orlando Cepeda
173) Hugh Jennings
174) Willard Brown
175) Enos Slaughter
176) Bob Lemon
177) Hugh Duffy
---Top 75% Cutoff---
178) Jake Beckley
179) Pete Hill
180) Mickey Welch
181) Red Faber
182) Addie Joss
183) Ray Dandridge
184) Bill Foster
185) Sam Rice
186) Frank Grant
187) Nellie Fox
188) Joe Sewell
189) Hilton Smith
190) Chuck Klein
191) Phil Rizzuto

Master List

[B][U]Player				BBF Rank[/U][/B]
Hank Aaron			5
Grover Alexander		18
Roberto Alomar			120
Cap Anson			25
Luis Aparicio
Luke Appling			92
Richie Ashburn			159
Earl Averill			158
Frank Baker			96
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Banks			65
Jake Beckley			178
Cool Papa Bell			136
Johnny Bench			31
Chief Bender
Yogi Berra			34
Bert Blyleven			106
Wade Boggs			53
Jim Bottomley
Lou Boudreau			140
Roger Bresnahan			166
George Brett			36
Lou Brock			134
Dan Brouthers			46
Mordecai Brown			91
Ray Brown			168
Willard Brown			174
Jim Bunning			167
Jesse Burkett			100
Roy Campanella			64
Rod Carew			61
Max Carey			156
Steve Carlton			47
Gary Carter			88
Orlando Cepeda			172
Frank Chance			155
Oscar Charleston		21
Jack Chesbro
Fred Clarke			102
John Clarkson			81
Roberto Clemente		41
Ty Cobb				3
Mickey Cochrane			55
Eddie Collins			16
Jimmy Collins			157
Earle Combs
Roger Connor			58
Andy Cooper
Stan Coveleski			151
Sam Crawford			66
Joe Cronin			98
Kiki Cuyler
Ray Dandridge			183
George Davis			68
Andre Dawson			160
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean			133
Ed Delahanty			49
Bill Dickey			99
Martin Dihigo			82
Joe DiMaggio			20
Larry Doby			128
Bobby Doerr			161
Don Drysdale			132
Hugh Duffy			177
Dennis Eckersley		126
Johnny Evers
Buck Ewing			74
Red Faber			181
Bob Feller			40
Rick Ferrell
Rollie Fingers
Carlton Fisk			77
Elmer Flick			163
Whitey Ford			89
Bill Foster			184
Nellie Fox			187
Jimmie Foxx			28
Frankie Frisch			85
Pud Galvin			146
Lou Gehrig			8
Charlie Gehringer		54
Bob Gibson			42
Josh Gibson			15
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon			138
Goose Goslin			130
Rich Gossage			142
Frank Grant			186
Hank Greenberg			45
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove			23
Tony Gwynn			62
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Billy Hamilton			75
Gabby Hartnett			108
Harry Heilmann			101
Rickey Henderson		27
Billy Herman			147
Pete Hill			179
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby			12
Waite Hoyt
Carl Hubbell			63
Catfish Hunter
Monte Irvin			118
Reggie Jackson			56
Travis Jackson	
Ferguson Jenkins		94
Hugh Jennings			173
Judy Johnson
Walter Johnson			7
Addie Joss			182
Al Kaline			51
Tim Keefe			90
Willie Keeler			123
George Kell
Joe Kelley			165
George Kelly
King Kelly			69
Harmon Killebrew		73
Ralph Kiner			141
Chuck Klein			190
Sandy Koufax			48
Nap Lajoie			29
Barry Larkin			107
Tony Lazzeri
Bob Lemon			176
Buck Leonard			103
Freddie Lindstrom
Pop Lloyd			37
Ernie Lombardi
Ted Lyons			154
Biz Mackey			148
Mickey Mantle			11
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Juan Marichal			79
Rube Marquard
Eddie Mathews			39
Christy Mathewson		26
Willie Mays			2
Bill Mazeroski
Tommy McCarthy
Willie McCovey			84
Joe McGinnity			164
Bid McPhee			170
Joe Medwick			112
Jose Mendez
Johnny Mize			50
Paul Molitor			116
Joe Morgan			30
Eddie Murray			71
Stan Musial			10
Hal Newhouser			137
Kid Nichols			38
Phil Niekro			86
Jim O’Rourke			113
Mel Ott				32
Satchel Paige			17
Jim Palmer			97
Herb Pennock
Tony Perez
Gaylord Perry			76
Eddie Plank			87
Kirby Puckett			139
Charles Radbourn		117
Pee Wee Reese			144
Jim Rice
Sam Rice			185
Cal Ripken			35
Eppa Rixey
Phil Rizzuto			191
Robin Roberts			83
Brooks Robinson			93
Frank Robinson			19
Jackie Robinson			13
Bullet Rogan			72
Edd Roush			152
Red Ruffing			169
Amos Rusie			129
Babe Ruth			1
Nolan Ryan			59
Ryne Sandberg			119
Ron Santo			121
Louis Santop			149
Ray Schalk
Mike Schmidt			22
Red Schoendienst
Tom Seaver			24
Joe Sewell			188
Al Simmons			80
George Sisler			110
Enos Slaughter			175
Hilton Smith			190
Ozzie Smith			115
Duke Snider			67
Warren Spahn			33
Tris Speaker			14
Willie Stargell			95
Turkey Stearnes			52
Bruce Sutter
Mule Suttles			111
Don Sutton			153
Ben Taylor
Bill Terry			131
Sam Thompson			145
Joe Tinker
Cristobal Torriente		125
Pie Traynor			162
Dazzy Vance			143
Arky Vaughan			57
Rube Waddell			135
Honus Wagner			6
Bobby Wallace			171
Ed Walsh			105
Lloyd Waner
Paul Waner			78
John Ward			70
Mickey Welch			180
Willie Wells			124
Zack Wheat			127
Hoyt Wilhelm			104
Billy Williams			122
Joe Williams			43
Ted Williams			4
Vic Willis
Hack Wilson
Jud Wilson			114
Dave Winfield			109
Early Wynn			150
Carl Yastrzemski		44
Cy Young			9
Ross Youngs
Robin Yount			60

Ranking by Primary Position
Catcher (13): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Biz Mackey (148), Louis Santop (149), Roger Bresnahan (166)

First Base (17): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131), Frank Chance (155), Orlando Cepeda (172), Jake Beckley (178)

Second Base (16): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120), Joe Gordon (138), Billy Herman (147), Bobby Doerr (161), Bid McPhee (170), Frank Grant (186), Nellie Fox (187)

Shortstop (19): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144), Bobby Wallace (171), Hugh Jennings (173), Joe Sewell (188), Phil Rizzuto (t190)

Third Base (12): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121), Jimmy Collins (157), Pie Traynor (162), Ray Dandridge (183)

Left Field (18): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130), Lou Brock (134), Ralph Kiner (141), Joe Kelley (165)

Center Field (20): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128), Cool Papa Bell (136), Kirby Puckett (139), Edd Roush (152), Max Carey (156), Earl Averill (158), Richie Ashburn (159), Willard Brown (174), Hugh Duffy (177), Pete Hill (179)

Right Field (20): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123), Sam Thompson (145), Andre Dawson (160), Elmer Flick (163), Enos Slaughter (175), Sam Rice (185), Chuck Klein (t190)

Pitcher (56): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129), Don Drysdale (132), Dizzy Dean (133), Rube Waddell (135), Hal Newhouser (137), Rich Gossage (142), Dazzy Vance (143), Pud Galvin (146), Early Wynn (150), Stan Coveleski (151), Don Sutton (153), Ted Lyons (154), Joe McGinnity (164), Jim Bunning (167), Ray Brown (168), Red Ruffing (169), Bob Lemon (176), Mickey Welch (180), Red Faber (181), Addie Joss (182), Bill Foster (184), Hilton Smith (189)

Ranking by Primary Decade
1880s (12): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117), Pud Galvin (146), Mickey Welch (180)

1890s (15): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129), Sam Thompson (145), Joe Kelley (165), Bid McPhee (171), Hugh Jennings (173), Hugh Duffy (177), Jake Beckley (178), Frank Grant (186)

1900s (15): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102), Rube Waddell (135), Frank Chance (155), Jimmy Collins (157), Elmer Flick (163), Joe McGinnity (164), Roger Bresnahan (166), Bobby Wallace (170), Addie Joss (182)

1910s (13): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127), Louis Santop (149), Max Carey (156), Pete Hill (179)

1920s (18): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130), Dazzy Vance (143), Biz Mackey (148), Stan Coveleski (151), Edd Roush (152), Pie Traynor (162), Red Faber (181), Sam Rice (185), Joe Sewell (188)

1930s (32): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131), Dizzy Dean (133), Cool Papa Bell (136), Billy Herman (147), Ted Lyons (154), Earl Averill (158), Ray Brown (168), Red Ruffing (169), Bill Foster (184), Hilton Smith (189), Chuck Klein (t190)

1940s (17): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118), Hal Newhouser (137), Joe Gordon (138), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144), Bobby Doerr (161), Willard Brown (174), Enos Slaughter (175), Ray Dandridge (183), Phil Rizzuto (t190)

1950s (15): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128), Ralph Kiner (141), Early Wynn (150), Richie Ashburn (159), Bob Lemon (176), Nellie Fox (187)

1960s (18): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122), Don Drysdale (132), Jim Bunning (167), Orlando Cepeda (172)

1970s (17): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106), Lou Brock (134), Don Sutton (153)

1980s (15): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126), Rich Gossage (142)

1990s (3): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120), Kirby Puckett (139)

Links to Previous Elections
Election 1-5
Election 6-10
Election 11-15
Election 16-20
Election 21- 25
Election 26-30
Election 31-35
Election 36-40 (41)
Election 42-45
Election 46-50
Election 51-55
Election 56-60
Election 61-65
Election 65-70
Election 71-75
Election 75-80 (81)
Election 82-85
Election 86-90
Election 91-95
Election 96-100
Election 101-105 (106)
Election 107-110
Election 111-115
Election 116-120
Election 121-125
Election 126-130 (131)
Election 132-135
Election 136-140
Election 141-145
Election 146-150
Election 151-155 (156)
Election 157-160
Election 161-165
Election 166-170
Election 171-175
Election 176-180
Election 181-185
Election 186-190 (191)

[PVNICK]

1. Lefty Gomez
2. Johnny Evers
3. Tony Perez
4. Chief Bender
5. Catfish Hunter
6. Bruce Sutter
7. Jose Mendez
8. Luis Aparicio
9. Hack Wilson
10. Rollie Fingers

Willis will be in my next batch as soon as I figure out who that may include

[DoubleX]

We elected six players last time, so we'll only be elected 4 this time (barring ties).

At this point, it's getting really tough to round out the ballot.

1) Lefty Gomez
2) Vic Willis
3) Luis Aparicio
4) Tony Perez
5) Rollie Fingers
6) Eppa Rixey
7) Ernie Lombardi
8) Tony Lazzeri
9) Leon Day
10) Hack Wilson

I don't recall Lombardi or Lazzeri receiving any support yet. So a quick note on each. Lombardi may have been the slowest player ever, but his 126 OPS+ makes him one of the elite offensive catchers in the game's history. His MVP and 2 batting titles also give his career some subjective sparkle.

Lazzeri's 46.2 WAR is just a slight tick behind the recently elected Nellie Fox's 46.3, and Lazzeri got there in 3000 less plate appearances. That's right, Lazzeri's career had the same value as Fox's despite Lazzeri essentially playing the equivalent of 5-6 less years. Subjectively, Poosh 'Em Up Tony was a fixture on some of the greatest Yankees teams of all time and his 121 OPS+ reflects that he was quite the offensive presence at 2B. I tend to believe that Lazzeri's career, likely due to somewhat brevity and being overshadowed by his great teammates, gets underrated. But I think his career, particularly from a value standpoint, compares pretty favorable to several 2Bmen we've already elected.

[DoubleX]

Double post....

[jalbright]

1. Jose Mendez
2. Hack Wilson
3. Ben Taylor
4. Bruce Sutter
5. Dave Bancroft
6. Kiki Cuyler
7. Travis Jackson
8. Earle Combs
9. Leon Day
10. Tony Perez

[dgarza]

1. Rollie Fingers
2. Catfish Hunter
3. Luis Aparicio
4. Kiki Cuyler
5. Hack Wilson
6. Jim Rice
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Vic Willis
9. Ernie Lombardi
10. Burleigh Grimes

Next : Tony Lazzeri, Heinie Manush, Waite Hoyt

Soon : Jim Bottomley

I believe my voting gives Grimes his 1st appearance.

[Cowtipper]

1) Heinie Manush
2) Jim Rice
3) Rabbit Maranville
4) Vic Willis
5) Kiki Cuyler
6) Luis Aparicio
7) Tony Perez
8) Rollie Fingers
9) Eppa Rixey
10) Jim Bottomley

[TheMendozaLine]

1. Jose Mendez
2. Vic Willis
3. Luis Aparicio
4. Eppa Rixey
5. Heinie Manush
6. Tony Lazzeri
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Kiki Cuyler
9. Dave Bancroft
10. Rollie Fingers

[SavoyBG]

1 - Leon Day
2 - Luis Aparicio
3 - Tony Perez
4 - Rabbit Maranville
5 - Eppa Rixey
6 - Lefty Gomez
7 - Kiki Cuyler
8 - Heinie Manush
9 - Burleigh Grimes
10 - Chief Bender

My next batch, in order - Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, Vic Willis, Hack Wilson, Harry Hooper,
Tony Lazzeri, Dave Bancroft, Rollie Fingers, Catfish Hunter, Waite Hoyt, Jim Rice

Here is how I am currently ranking the rest of the players in this project:

Earle Combs
Red Schoendienst
Jack Chesbro
Jim Bottomley
George Kell
Ernie Lombardi
Herb Pennock
Jose Mendez
Bill Mazeroski
Jesse Haines
Fred Lindstrom
Travis Jackson
Bruce Sutter
Judy Johnson
Rube Marquard
Ray Schalk
Rick Ferrell
Andy Cooper
Ben Taylor
Ross Youngs
Lloyd Waner
Chick Hafey
George Kelly
Tommy McCarthy

[J W]

1. Luis Aparicio (10)
2. Eppa Rixey (9)
3. Jose Mendez (8)
4. Tony Perez (7)
5. Rollie Fingers (6)
6. Ben Taylor (5)
7. Lefty Gomez (4)
8. Vic Willis (3)
9. Bruce Sutter (2)
10. Johnny Evers (1)
Chief Bender
Joe Tinker
Rabbit Maranville
Leon Day
Dave Bancroft
Tony Lazzeri
Travis Jackson
Jim Rice
Kiki Cuyler
George Kell

DoubleX: Lombardi is the next position player I have after Kell. I'll go over him again and see if I give him more catcher credit.

[jjpm74]

1. Johnny Evers
2. Jose Mendez
3. Rabbit Maranville
4. Leon Day
5. Bruce Sutter
6. Kiki Cuyler
7. Hack Wilson
8. Tony Lazzeri
9. Chief Bender
10. Dave Bancroft

In queue: Catfish Hunter, Eppa Rixey, Vic Willis, Lefty Gomez, Jim Rice, Leon Day

[DoubleX]

I'm going to plug Vic Willis again as I can't fathom how he's falling behind the likes of Chief Bender and Burleigh Grimes on some ballots.

Pitching WAR
Willis: 62.7 (38th all time)
Grimes: 44.2
Bender: 40.8

ERA+
Willis: 117
Bender: 112
Grimes: 108

IP
Grimes: 4180
Willis: 3996
Bender: 3017

Willis also twice led in pitching WAR, finished second and third in two other seasons and 5 top five seasons, twice led the league in ERA+, and led the league in IP once and was regularly among the league leaders. Grimes and Bender don't even approach Willis' leaderboard performance (Bender never even finished in the top 10 in IP).

Willis' 62.7 pitching WAR also ranks as 38th all time and places him ahead of the following pitchers we've already elected: Red Faber (61.9), Stan Coveleski (60.7), Ted Lyons (60.7), Dazzy Vance (60.5), Bob Feller (59.9), Ed Walsh (59.5), Mickey Welch (59.3), Dennis Eckersley (58.6), Juan Marichal (58.2), Rube Waddell (57.7), Don Drysdale (57.4), Joe McGinnity (57.2), Jim Bunning (56.7), Hal Newhouser (55.8), Mordecai Brown (51.7), Whitey Ford (50.6), Sandy Koufax (50.3), Red Ruffing (48.6), Hoyt Wilhelm (47.4), Early Wynn (46.5), Addie Joss (43.4), Dizzy Dean (41.3), Goose Gossage (39.9)

Whatever subjective credit Grimes and Bender may have, shouldn't be enough to overcome the fact that Willis was a significantly better pitcher, such that I believe he should have been elected long ago in this project. Am I missing something about Willis?

[SavoyBG]

I'm going to plug Vic Willis again as I can't fathom how he's falling behind the likes of Chief Bender and Burleigh Grimes on some ballots.

Pitching WAR
Willis: 62.7 (38th all time)
Grimes: 44.2
Bender: 40.8

ERA+
Willis: 117
Bender: 112
Grimes: 108

IP
Grimes: 4180
Willis: 3996
Bender: 3017

Willis also twice led in pitching WAR, finished second and third in two other seasons and 5 top five seasons, twice led the league in ERA+, and led the league in IP once and was regularly among the league leaders. Grimes and Bender don't even approach Willis' leaderboard performance (Bender never even finished in the top 10 in IP).

Willis' 62.7 pitching WAR also ranks as 38th all time and places him ahead of the following pitchers we've already elected: Red Faber (61.9), Stan Coveleski (60.7), Ted Lyons (60.7), Dazzy Vance (60.5), Bob Feller (59.9), Ed Walsh (59.5), Mickey Welch (59.3), Dennis Eckersley (58.6), Juan Marichal (58.2), Rube Waddell (57.7), Don Drysdale (57.4), Joe McGinnity (57.2), Jim Bunning (56.7), Hal Newhouser (55.8), Mordecai Brown (51.7), Whitey Ford (50.6), Sandy Koufax (50.3), Red Ruffing (48.6), Hoyt Wilhelm (47.4), Early Wynn (46.5), Addie Joss (43.4), Dizzy Dean (41.3), Goose Gossage (39.9)

Whatever subjective credit Grimes and Bender may have, shouldn't be enough to overcome the fact that Willis was a significantly better pitcher, such that I believe he should have been elected long ago in this project. Am I missing something about Willis?

No argument, Willis had a more valuable career than Bender or Grimes.

But this is about hall of fame worthiness.

Bender was an American Indian who faced all kinds of obstacles in being a professional baseball player. A career .625 WIN% He won 6 world series games with a career WS ERA of 2.44. This included three complete games in the 1911 WS. If you throw out his horrendous Federal League season of 1915 when he was likely injured or something, his career ERA+ would be a few points better.
Bender is also thought by some historians to have invented the slider, which he called a nickel change. In 1981, Lawrence Ritter and Donald Honig included him in their book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time. I don;t think that Vic Willis was in the book. I see Willis as having a more valuable career, but Bender as being a more worthy hall of famer for several reasons. He played for a dynasty and I think he was the only player who was there for the entire run of early pennants for the Athletics (1905-1914).

As for Grimes, he pitched 19 seasons, leading his league in wins, CG and innings each more than once and also once in ERA+

Willis compiled a lot of his best numbers in the years when the NL was severely depleted by the raids on players by the AL. His 01 and 02 seasons are a little suspect for that reason, plus he had three years in his prime where his ERA+ was below 100, so he was inconsistent from year to year. In his two WS games he allowed 19 runners in 11.2 innings.

I see him as less worthy than Bender and slightly less worthy than Grimes.

[DoubleX]

No argument, Willis had a more valuable career than Bender or Grimes.

But this is about hall of fame worthiness.

Bender was an American Indian who faced all kinds of obstacles in being a professional baseball player. A career .625 WIN% He won 6 world series games with a career WS ERA of 2.44. This included three complete games in the 1911 WS. If you throw out his horrendous Federal League season of 1915 when he was likely injured or something, his career ERA+ would be a few points better.
Bender is also thought by some historians to have invented the slider, which he called a nickel change. In 1981, Lawrence Ritter and Donald Honig included him in their book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time. I don;t think that Vic Willis was in the book. I see Willis as having a more valuable career, but Bender as being a more worthy hall of famer for several reasons. He played for a dynasty and I think he was the only player who was there for the entire run of early pennants for the Athletics (1905-1914).

As for Grimes, he pitched 19 seasons, leading his league in wins, CG and innings each more than once and also once in ERA+

Willis compiled a lot of his best numbers in the years when the NL was severely depleted by the raids on players by the AL. His 01 and 02 seasons are a little suspect for that reason, plus he had three years in his prime where his ERA+ was below 100, so he was inconsistent from year to year. In his two WS games he allowed 19 runners in 11.2 innings.

I see him as less worthy than Bender and slightly less worthy than Grimes.

I understand the subjective factors that help Bender, but for me, it's not enough to overcome what I perceive as a huge disparity in performance.

If Bender's subjective elements matter so much, then my next question is why didn't people support him over pitchers with very similar careers to Willis' such as Red Faber and Ted Lyons? Why has the line been drawn at Vic Willis? Regardless of subjective factors, we've made clear that pitchers with career value like Willis' were worthy of being elected long ago, so why has Willis and Willis alone dropped so far?

As for Grimes, I put him in a group with his peers, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock, and Rube Marquard, as being among the very worst selections in the Hall.

As for devaluing Willis' 1901 and 1902 seasons, the guy still had to pitch, and it should count for something that he was very good those years as there was still plenty of top level talent in the NL. Depleted league or not, leading the league with 410 IP in 1902 is impressive (Bender never pitched more than 250 in a season). Willis' best season and fourth best season also came in other years, notably 1899 (10.0 WAR) and 1906 (7.8 WAR), so the notion that he pitched his best solely as a product of a diminished league isn't supported.

I'm sorry, but if pitchers like Red Faber, Ted Lyons, and Mickey Welch have been elected by now, there's no reason that Willis should be dropping like this and falling behind the likes of Bender and Grimes who rank among the worst performers at their position in the Hall.

[dgarza]

I'm sorry, but if pitchers like Red Faber, Ted Lyons, and Mickey Welch have been elected by now, there's no reason that Willis should be dropping like this and falling behind the likes of Bender and Grimes who rank among the worst performers at their position in the Hall.

But he's not falling behind. Willis is still well ahead in the elections.