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Astros BBF franchise HOF second chance election

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  • Astros BBF franchise HOF second chance election

    This will be one of two second chance round elections begun this week. What we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. The elections will only be open for a week--but there will be at least three or four days for discussion and new nominations. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. The deadline for suggesting nominees is twelve hours before the election begins.

    In this case, the election will not begin until Saturday, June 2 at 7 am EDT, and will end at 7 am EDT June 9. Nominations close 43 hours before the election begins, or May 31 at noon EDT. Ballots not cast within the stated election time frame will not count.


    The Astros have the following already inducted:

    Inducted Players (12): Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Cesar Cedeno, Jose Cruz, Glenn Davis, Bill Doran, Joe Morgan, Joe Niekro, Terry Puhl, J. R. Richard, Nolan Ryan, Mike Scott, Billy Wagner, Bob Watson, Don Wilson, Jimmy Wynn

    Inducted Contributors (1): Larry Dierker

    The list of nominees at present is:

    Players
    Moises Alou
    Roger Clemens
    Turk Farrell
    Mike Hampton
    Doug Rader
    Dave Smith
    Dickie Thon

    Contributors
    Roy Hofheinz
    Tal Smith
    Bill Virdon
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-31-2012, 04:40 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Jjpm posted this:
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    For the Astros, I nominate Turk Farrell:

    For his 5 years with the Astros, he posted the following WAR:

    1962--7.4
    1963--3.9
    1964--4.1
    1965--2.6
    1966--0.3

    That's good enough for 18.3 career WAR with the Astros/Colt45s. During that stretch, he was an All-Star three times. What makes him impressive is his 3.02 ERA in 1962 which was 7th best in the league despite being on a 64-96 expansion team that finished 8th in the league. Farrell is definitely worth a second look.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      dgarza offers this case for Roger Clemens for the Astros (no second required):

      Originally posted by dgarza View Post
      Case for...

      Roger Clemens
      2x AS (2004,2005) [Started the 2004 game]

      2004
      NL CY
      8th in NL MVP
      18-4, 2nd in Wins NL
      .818 % led NL
      4th in HR/9, H/9 NL
      5th in pWAR, ERA, ERA+, Strikeouts NL

      2005
      3rd in NL CY
      Led NL in pWAR, ERA, ERA+, H/9
      2nd in WAR, WHIP, HR/9
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        There was significant discussion of Doug Rader . I started with this post quoting dgarza and posting my own take:
        Here's a case by dgarza for Doug Rader

        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        Doug Rader
        Doug Rader deserves more recognition than he gets.

        His 5 straight NL 3B Gold Gloves should be enough (1970-1974).
        Only Santo, Schmidt, and Rolen have done so.

        But also Rader may have been the best 3B Houston has had, considering offense and whole package.
        .251/.322/.403/.725 - OPS+ 105
        Most HRs :
        Code:
                                         
        Rk           Player  HR From   To
        1        Doug Rader 128 1967 1975
        2    Morgan Ensberg 105 2000 2007
        3      Ken Caminiti 103 1987 2000
        4    Bob Aspromonte  51 1962 1968
        5       Phil Garner  49 1981 1987
        Most RBIs :
        Code:
                                             
        Rk           Player RBI  HR From   To
        1        Doug Rader 600 128 1967 1975
        2      Ken Caminiti 546 103 1987 2000
        3       Enos Cabell 405  45 1975 1985
        4    Bob Aspromonte 385  51 1962 1968
        5    Morgan Ensberg 335 105 2000 2007
        Most Walks :
        Code:
                                             
        Rk           Player  BB  HR From   To
        1        Doug Rader 402 128 1967 1975
        2      Ken Caminiti 386 103 1987 2000
        3    Morgan Ensberg 319 105 2000 2007
        4    Bob Aspromonte 274  51 1962 1968
        5       Phil Garner 233  49 1981 1987
        Most WAR :
        Code:
                                                 
        Rk           Player WAR/pos  HR From   To
        1        Doug Rader    19.5 128 1967 1975
        2      Ken Caminiti    15.4 103 1987 2000
        3    Morgan Ensberg    12.2 105 2000 2007
        4       Phil Garner    10.9  49 1981 1987
        5       Bill Spiers     8.9  21 1996 2001
        Rader is a candidate, but I disagree that his whole package is worthy of a spot in the Astro HOF. He never managed more than 119 OPS+ in more than 350 PA, and was never an all-star, and I don't think he deserved to be. Not enough to get my vote.
        Dgarza responded:
        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        I would like to suggest to others that any player who wins 5 straight GGs is significant enough to a team's history to be honored in their HOF, even more so in expansion teams' HOFs.
        Jjpm added:
        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
        The problem with gold gloves is that guys like Derek Jeter and Doug Rader get them. Derek Jeter was never an excellent defender and neither was Rader. Rader was middling defensively at best. Rader did, however have 3 good seasons offensively in a field that was not friendly to hitters. That may warrant some consideration. Was he a fan favorite? If so, that would also be a reason to give him some consideration.
        Dgarza responded
        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        The problem with Team HOFs is that people treat them differently. I think team HOFs are so much more about perception, subjectivity, and team history than is true in a National HOF.

        A player's team HOF worthiness value can be over 50% based on perception and subjectivity. Look at Joe Carter. His Blue Jay WAR is 5.7. Yet he got in one his 1st try, and deservedly so. Rader's Houston WAR is 19.5.

        Houston should celebrate Rader's 5 GGs, not try to completely analyze his hard value as a player. It almost doesn't matter if the GGs were deserved or not in this venue. 5 straight says a lot about perception. 1 or 2 here and there is one thing, but 5 straight is another.
        I say this because I vote in these team HOFs as if I was a general fan of the team, not as an outsider. I think that's the point of team HOF, to celebrate the players and the team.

        Was he a fan favorite? I can't really say (These days, the answer may be based on how many bobbleheads are made in one's likeness), but from what I can gather it seems as if The Red Rooster was a known clubhouse character.
        Dgarza added
        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        Additionally, Rader is 11th for Houston WAR. Just behind Puhl and Watson, both who are in the Astros HOF. And ahead of Bass and Thon, both who received 57% of votes last Astros round. Also ahead of Glenn Davis, who is in the Astros HOF.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #5
          dgarza brings an interesting case to the fore in Roy Hofheinz as a contributor for the Astros. No second is required. I will support him for the Astros, but his role in Astroturf is at best a mixed blessing IMHO.

          Originally posted by dgarza View Post
          Roy Hofheinz
          Partial to sole owner of Astros from the early-60s to the mid-70s.

          from Wikipedia
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Hofheinz

          A flamboyant and successful orator, broadcaster, developer and sportsman, he was part of the group that created a Major League Baseball franchise the Houston Colt .45s (which later became the Houston Astros) to Houston, as well as built the Harris County Domed Stadium, known as the Astrodome, the first large covered baseball and football facility in the world.

          Later, after the "Dome" was built, he worked with engineers at Monsanto Corporation to develop Astroturf, an imitation grass now widely used where natural grass does not flourish.

          Judge Roy Hofheinz was a driving force behind the effort to obtain the Major League Baseball franchise for Houston, along with oilman Craig F. Cullinan, Jr. who had been involved with the failed attempted "Continental League" and who was chairman of the Houston Sports Association executive committee, a syndicate of local businessmen dedicated to bringing a pro baseball team to southeastern Texas. On October 17, 1960, Houston was awarded the Colt .45 franchise in the ten-team National League.

          In 2006, Roy Hofheinz was inducted in the Texas Baseball Hall of Fame.


          from Wikipedia
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrodome

          Roy Hofheinz, a former mayor of Houston, and his group were granted the franchise after they promised to build a covered stadium. It was thought a covered stadium was a must for a major-league team to be viable in Houston due to the area's subtropical climate and hot summers. Game-time temperatures are usually above 97 degrees in July and August, with high humidity, and a likelihood of rain. Hofheinz claimed inspiration for what would eventually become the Astrodome when he was on a tour of Rome, where he learned that the builders of the ancient Colosseum installed giant velaria to shield spectators from the Roman sun.

          The Astrodome was conceived by Hofheinz as early as 1952 when he and his daughter Dene were rained out once too often at Buffalo Stadium, home of Houston's minor league baseball affiliate, the Houston Buffs. Hofheinz abandoned his interest in the world's first air-conditioned shopping mall, The Galleria, and set his sights on bringing major league baseball to Houston.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #6
            The cae for Tal Smith as a contributor for the Astros. However, I must note that the reference to Tal Smith Enterprises is no reason to put him in the Astro Hall of Fame.

            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
            Tal Smith
            adapted from Wikipedia:
            Tal Smith was Houston's farm system director in the early '60s, then assistant to the president. He was promoted to vice president, player personnel after the 1965 season.

            Later, Smith became the general manager of the Astros in 1975.
            Smith was named team president in 1976.
            Under his leadership, the team rebuilt itself into contenders, winning its first division title in 1980.

            In November 1994, Smith returned to the Astros as president of baseball operations.
            On August 27, 2007, Smith was named acting GM.
            Smith was a vital aide to McLane in the design of the Astros' ballpark, Minute Maid Park. The ballpark's field dimensions and unique angles were designed with Smith's input and assistance. Center field boasts a 10 degree hill named "Tal's Hill" as a tribute to his creativity and contribution to the Minute Maid Park project. Smith had a similar role in the construction of the Astros first stadium, the Astrodome, in 1963 when was assistant to the president of the Houston Sports Association. The Astrodome changed the face of stadiums and the city of Houston. When the natural grass failed to thrive under the Astrodome's roof, Smith was responsible for finding an alternative playing surface. This led to the installation of Astroturf, a synthetic turf that became widely used in stadiums throughout the country.

            Smith created Tal Smith Enterprises to advise MLB clubs on how best to handle salary arbitration cases with their players.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #7
              dgarza presents this for the Astros:
              Originally posted by dgarza View Post
              Bill Virdon
              Managed the most games for the Astros.
              Astros manager with most wins.

              Led Astros to their 1st Divisional pennant.

              Named Manager of the Year in 1980 by both the AP and Sporting News.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Mike Hampton
                76-50 = .603 %
                114 ERA+
                16.5 Total WAR

                1999 NL TSN Pitcher of the Year

                All-Star Games
                1999 *

                Silver Sluggers
                1999 NL (P) - .311/.373/.432 - 105 OPS+

                Led League in :
                Wins (1999)
                % (1999)
                HR/9 (1999)
                Assists at P (1997)

                Has one of the most impressive Winning % of Astros (500 IP min.):
                Code:
                                                        
                Rk          Player W-L%     IP From   To
                1    Roger Clemens .679  539.0 2004 2006
                2       Roy Oswalt .636 1932.1 2001 2010
                3    Mark Portugal .634  782.1 1989 1993
                4          Jim Ray .609  565.2 1965 1973
                5     Mike Hampton .603 1138.0 1994 2009
                6     J.R. Richard .601 1606.0 1971 1980
                7      Wade Miller .598  768.0 1999 2004
                8    Andy Pettitte .587  519.2 2004 2006
                9    Pete Harnisch .577  736.0 1991 1994
                10      Mike Scott .576 1704.0 1983 1991
                Hampton was one of the best hitting pitchers of the 1990s according to WAR:
                Code:
                                                    
                Rk          Player WAR/pos From   To
                1      Tom Glavine     5.1 1990 1999
                2      John Smoltz     3.6 1990 1999
                3     Mike Hampton     3.1 1993 1999
                4    Dwight Gooden     3.1 1990 1999
                5    Chris Hammond     2.6 1990 1998
                Last edited by dgarza; 05-29-2012, 07:59 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm thinking that due to the holiday weekend, I'll extend the time for nominations to 7 pm EDT Thursday night. It's only seven hours, but it should help.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dickie Thon
                    Up and coming star until he was hit by pitch.
                    MVP-type year in 1983.

                    .270/.329/.395
                    106 OPS+

                    All-Star Games
                    1983 *

                    Silver Sluggers
                    1983 NL (SS)

                    Wins Above Replacement
                    1983 NL 7.2 (1st)

                    Triples
                    1982 NL 10 (1st)

                    Assists as SS
                    1983 NL 533 (1st)

                    Total Zone Runs as SS
                    1983 NL 19 (1st)

                    Despite the career altering injury, Thon is still probably the best SS the Astros ever had :
                    Code:
                                                                   
                    Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+    G From   To
                    1       Dickie Thon    15.3  106  566 1981 1987
                    2      Adam Everett    10.9   69  649 2001 2007
                    3    Craig Reynolds     8.3   79 1170 1979 1989
                    4       Denis Menke     8.2  109  634 1968 1974

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Moises Alou
                      His best season came as an Astro

                      .331/.403/.585
                      148 OPS+

                      All-Star Games
                      1998 *
                      2001 *

                      Silver Slugger
                      1998 NL (OF)

                      Highest AVG & SLG All Time, Astros (400 game min.)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dave Smith
                        53-47 = .530 %
                        137 ERA+
                        199 Saves

                        All-Star Games
                        1986
                        1990 *

                        Most Astros Games and Games Finished.
                        2nd on Astros Saves list.

                        Smith was one of the premier closers in the NL for over a decade, 1980-1990.
                        Code:
                                                                                                         
                        Rk            Player  SV ERA+  WAR From   To   G GS  GF  W  L W-L%    IP  SO  ERA
                        1          Lee Smith 207  137 19.9 1980 1990 511  6 387 43 55 .439 750.0 714 2.84
                        2         Dave Smith 199  137 12.1 1980 1990 563  1 400 53 47 .530 762.0 529 2.53
                        3       Bruce Sutter 195  118  8.6 1980 1988 421  0 333 41 49 .456 651.1 443 3.14
                        4        John Franco 181  153 13.9 1984 1990 448  0 334 47 33 .588 595.2 423 2.49
                        5    Steve Bedrosian 178  115 13.6 1981 1990 552 46 389 65 70 .481 990.0 779 3.31

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Folks, I'm very disappointed in the recent turnout in voting in this project. We only got enough votes to elect someone in one of three last week, and we've only gotten one of the three this week so far this week. If we don't make two or more this week, I'm not posting new teams unless we get to six or more for both the Astros and White Sox. If that doesn't happen, I will walk away from this project and leave it to someone else if they want, but I'm not going to bang my head against a wall for no reason. The idea of voting for current actives and recent retirees will not happen under my guidance either if that comes to pass. Either folks want this project to continue or they don't, and it's time for decision.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            With Zito75's votes to carry both the A's and Brewers to six votes, I will post a new set of teams this weekend. However, starting with the elections that will begin next week (the White Sox and the Astros), if we fail to get at least six votes for over 50% of the teams in any 3 election stretch, the project will end.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nominations are now closed.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment

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