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Jimmy Wynn

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  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

    Looking at BR, BG, TT, BP, Wynn comes out to average in center for his career, above average in his prime.
    Think of it like a letter grade. A = great, B = good, C = average, D = poor, F = fail. He was a solid B, maybe a B+ in his prime. (I'm a big peak/prime guy.) Like most all fielders (of any quality), he declined significantly in his latter years. So yes, I don't think calling him a good defender in center is a stretch. Also keep in mind that - all else being equal - even an average fielder in CF is worth at least as much as a good defender in the corners.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    Was he a good fielding center fielder, though?

    I'm not asking rhetorically...I have heard/read opinions on Wynn's fielding that are kind of all over the map. He was before my time, and I haven't seen much film or anything. The defensive stats on Baseball-Reference, generally what I go by, seem to indicate he was an average, if not a below average fielder.

    NB: I'm not disputing your larger point.
    Looking at BR, BG, TT, BP, Wynn comes out to average in center for his career, above average in his prime.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Right off the bat, you've got a guy with a .366 career OBP who hit practically 300 HR and 1,000 RBI in a pitcher's park in the 1960s. He was a good fielding center fielder and a three-time All-Star who was mostly overlooked by the national press until he moved to the Dodgers later in his career (whence two of his All-Star appearances came).

    Wynn put up a 129 OPS+ in more than 8,000 PA. Here'a a list of all the outfielders with a 125 OPS+ in at least 8,000 PA who have not been elected to Cooperstown:

    182 Barry Bonds
    154 Manny Ramirez
    140 Gary Sheffield
    139 Bob Johnson
    137 Jack Clark
    137 Reggie Smith
    137 Sherry Magee
    132 Jose Canseco
    132 Ken Singleton
    129 Bobby Bonds
    129 Jimmy Wynn
    128 Bobby Abreu
    128 Sammy Sosa
    127 Dwight Evans
    126 Ellis Burks
    125 Bernie Williams

    You and I see eye-to-eye on PED suspects so I'll just point out that people who refuse to consider those players ought to find this list even more impressive for Wynn (he moves up from 11th to 7th).

    Take note that none of the players with a better Adjusted OPS were center fielders for most of their career. And would you place more value on a pre-WWII hitter (Johnson, Magee) or someone who played within your lifetime? Not only was Wynn a better fielder than most of these (with a few notable exceptions), but he was also a better baserunner than half of them, too.

    Also, don't mistake my posting this list to suggest that Wynn shouldn't be enshrined because these guys aren't - many of their careers also merit election to Cooperstown.

    Without using any uber-metrics, I hope that I've illustrated that Wynn (a) has a better case for Cooperstown than you might have remembered, and (b) is squarely among the sorts of players shown on the above list, not as good as some, but better than a good number, too.

    Whether that places him in Cooperstown or not depends on where you think Cooperstown does/should draw the in/out line. IMO, that line falls below James Sherman Wynn.
    Was he a good fielding center fielder, though?

    I'm not asking rhetorically...I have heard/read opinions on Wynn's fielding that are kind of all over the map. He was before my time, and I haven't seen much film or anything. The defensive stats on Baseball-Reference, generally what I go by, seem to indicate he was an average, if not a below average fielder.

    NB: I'm not disputing your larger point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Jim Wynn

    I've heard Jim Wynn mentioned as a possible HOFer. I just don't buy it. .250/.366/.436 291 hrs 964 rbi

    Somebody convince me
    Right off the bat, you've got a guy with a .366 career OBP who hit practically 300 HR and 1,000 RBI in a pitcher's park in the 1960s. He was a good fielding center fielder and a three-time All-Star who was mostly overlooked by the national press until he moved to the Dodgers later in his career (whence two of his All-Star appearances came).

    Wynn put up a 129 OPS+ in more than 8,000 PA. Here'a a list of all the outfielders with a 125 OPS+ in at least 8,000 PA who have not been elected to Cooperstown:

    182 Barry Bonds
    154 Manny Ramirez
    140 Gary Sheffield
    139 Bob Johnson
    137 Jack Clark
    137 Reggie Smith
    137 Sherry Magee
    132 Jose Canseco
    132 Ken Singleton
    129 Bobby Bonds
    129 Jimmy Wynn
    128 Bobby Abreu
    128 Sammy Sosa
    127 Dwight Evans
    126 Ellis Burks
    125 Bernie Williams

    You and I see eye-to-eye on PED suspects so I'll just point out that people who refuse to consider those players ought to find this list even more impressive for Wynn (he moves up from 11th to 7th).

    Take note that none of the players with a better Adjusted OPS were center fielders for most of their career. And would you place more value on a pre-WWII hitter (Johnson, Magee) or someone who played within your lifetime? Not only was Wynn a better fielder than most of these (with a few notable exceptions), but he was also a better baserunner than half of them, too.

    Also, don't mistake my posting this list to suggest that Wynn shouldn't be enshrined because these guys aren't - many of their careers also merit election to Cooperstown.

    Without using any uber-metrics, I hope that I've illustrated that Wynn (a) has a better case for Cooperstown than you might have remembered, and (b) is squarely among the sorts of players shown on the above list, not as good as some, but better than a good number, too.

    Whether that places him in Cooperstown or not depends on where you think Cooperstown does/should draw the in/out line. IMO, that line falls below James Sherman Wynn.

    Leave a comment:


  • ol' aches and pains
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post

    Maybe something was wrong with Pierce. The last two games of the regular season were rough and he didn't last all that long in either. 6.2 IP, 9.45 ERA, 1.950 WHIP, .367/.406/.733./1.140.
    Pierce had the most CGs in the AL from 1949-1959, leading the league 3 years straight from 1956-1958. Perhaps he was finally worn out by the end of '59.

    Perhaps, but he won 16 games for San Francisco three years later, though admittedly with a lighter workload.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    Lopez apparently preferred to lose the World Series in 1959 over starting Billy Pierce in Game 6. I can't remember if he was injured, but he started 33 games in 1959, and only pitched four innings in the WS.
    Maybe something was wrong with Pierce. The last two games of the regular season were rough and he didn't last all that long in either. 6.2 IP, 9.45 ERA, 1.950 WHIP, .367/.406/.733./1.140.
    Pierce had the most CGs in the AL from 1949-1959, leading the league 3 years straight from 1956-1958. Perhaps he was finally worn out by the end of '59.


    Leave a comment:


  • ol' aches and pains
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    Lopez seems to have a lot of these petty little feuds. Billy Pierce was another guy Lopez got crosswise with for seemingly no reason anyone understood.
    Lopez apparently preferred to lose the World Series in 1959 over starting Billy Pierce in Game 6. I can't remember if he was injured, but he started 33 games in 1959, and only pitched four innings in the WS.
    Last edited by ol' aches and pains; 04-02-2020, 06:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Good tribute here:. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/remember...non-1942-2020/

    Leave a comment:


  • SamtheBravesFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
    Position players outside the HOF with three or more seasons of 6 Offensive WAR, retiring 2006 or earlier:
    Code:
    Name Yrs From To Age
    Jim Wynn 6 1965 1974 23-32
    Dick Allen 6 1964 1972 22-30
    Joe Jackson 6 1911 1920 23-32
    Mark McGwire 5 1992 1999 28-35
    Bernie Williams 4 1997 2002 28-33
    Albert Belle 4 1994 1998 27-31
    Dale Murphy 4 1983 1987 27-31
    Pete Rose 4 1965 1976 24-35
    Pedro Guerrero 3 1982 1985 26-29
    Toby Harrah 3 1975 1982 26-33
    Bobby Grich 3 1974 1979 25-30
    Frank Howard 3 1968 1970 31-33
    Ken Boyer 3 1959 1961 28-30
    Dolph Camilli 3 1936 1941 29-34
    A great list of borderline Hall of Famers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freakshow
    replied
    Position players outside the HOF with three or more seasons of 6 Offensive WAR, retiring 2006 or earlier:
    Code:
    Name          Yrs From   To   Age
    Jim Wynn        6 1965 1974 23-32
    Dick Allen      6 1964 1972 22-30
    Joe Jackson     6 1911 1920 23-32
    Mark McGwire    5 1992 1999 28-35
    Bernie Williams 4 1997 2002 28-33
    Albert Belle    4 1994 1998 27-31
    Dale Murphy     4 1983 1987 27-31
    Pete Rose       4 1965 1976 24-35
    Pedro Guerrero  3 1982 1985 26-29
    Toby Harrah     3 1975 1982 26-33
    Bobby Grich     3 1974 1979 25-30
    Frank Howard    3 1968 1970 31-33
    Ken Boyer       3 1959 1961 28-30
    Dolph Camilli   3 1936 1941 29-34

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
    Players outside the HOF with multiple seasons of 7+ WAR, retiring 2006 or earlier:

    Code:
    Name Yrs From To Age
    Joe Jackson 5 1911 1920 23-32
    Bobby Grich 3 1973 1975 24-26
    Jim Wynn 3 1965 1974 23-32
    Dick Allen 3 1964 1972 22-30
    Albert Belle 2 1995 1998 28-31
    John Olerud 2 1993 1998 24-29
    Dale Murphy 2 1983 1987 27-31
    Dave Parker 2 1977 1978 26-27
    Fred Lynn 2 1975 1979 23-27
    Pete Rose 2 1973 1976 32-35
    Darrell Evans 2 1973 1974 26-27
    Cesar Cedeno 2 1972 1973 21-22
    Graig Nettles 2 1971 1976 26-31
    Jim Fregosi 2 1964 1970 22-28
    Ken Boyer 2 1959 1961 28-30
    Snuffy Stirnweiss 2 1944 1945 25-26
    Ken Williams 2 1922 1923 32-33
    Jack Glasscock 2 1886 1890 28-32
    Snuffy's only there because he played in 1944 and 1945.

    Otherwise, that is pretty good company to be in!

    Leave a comment:


  • Freakshow
    replied
    Position players outside the HOF with multiple seasons of 7+ WAR, retiring 2006 or earlier:

    Code:
    Name            Yrs From   To   Age
    Joe Jackson       5 1911 1920 23-32
    Bobby Grich       3 1973 1975 24-26
    Jim Wynn          3 1965 1974 23-32
    Dick Allen        3 1964 1972 22-30
    Albert Belle      2 1995 1998 28-31
    John Olerud       2 1993 1998 24-29
    Dale Murphy       2 1983 1987 27-31
    Dave Parker       2 1977 1978 26-27
    Fred Lynn         2 1975 1979 23-27
    Pete Rose         2 1973 1976 32-35
    Darrell Evans     2 1973 1974 26-27
    Cesar Cedeno      2 1972 1973 21-22
    Graig Nettles     2 1971 1976 26-31
    Jim Fregosi       2 1964 1970 22-28
    Ken Boyer         2 1959 1961 28-30
    Snuffy Stirnweiss 2 1944 1945 25-26
    Ken Williams      2 1922 1923 32-33
    Jack Glasscock    2 1886 1890 28-32
    Last edited by Freakshow; 03-30-2020, 10:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

    Al Lopez actively campaigned to keep Fox out of the HOF. Lopez seems to have been a major tool. Pretty much all the reports I heard, he was pretty well liked. Joe Morgan is a huge fan of Fox's for all the help the veteran gave the youngster in the early 1960's. Most reports are that Fox was well liked. Don't know why Lopez was so anti-Fox.


    Yeah, Santo was done in by spite.
    Lopez seems to have a lot of these petty little feuds. Billy Pierce was another guy Lopez got crosswise with for seemingly no reason anyone understood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    I never thought it was pity in either case, it was petty spite. Al Lopez had a big problem with Fox, I never knew why.

    As for Santo, yes, he campaigned, but he was deserving, and he knew it. And it was so obvious the way they waited and put him in immediately after he died. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and I wasn't even a Cub or Santo fan.
    Al Lopez actively campaigned to keep Fox out of the HOF. Lopez seems to have been a major tool. Pretty much all the reports I heard, he was pretty well liked. Joe Morgan is a huge fan of Fox's for all the help the veteran gave the youngster in the early 1960's. Most reports are that Fox was well liked. Don't know why Lopez was so anti-Fox.


    Yeah, Santo was done in by spite.

    Leave a comment:


  • ol' aches and pains
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

    Fox had been dead 22 years by that point, I don't think it was pity at that point. For Ron Santo, it may have been intentional to wait until he died from a few voters as Santo was widely disliked for his incessant self campaigning and for his showing people up when he played.
    I never thought it was pity in either case, it was petty spite. Al Lopez had a big problem with Fox, I never knew why.

    As for Santo, yes, he campaigned, but he was deserving, and he knew it. And it was so obvious the way they waited and put him in immediately after he died. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and I wasn't even a Cub or Santo fan.

    Leave a comment:

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