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Ranking the HoF Players: 226-236 (Final Election)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
    That's debatable. based on career win shares Hafey is the worst of the Frisch bunch. Based on best three win share seasons, Haines is the worst of the Frisch bunch. Based on MVP voting Kelly was near the top of the Frisch bunch.

    And I think that you simply chose the wrong one. Don't punish kelly because Frisch was a jerk. High Pockets was an integral part of the only National League team ever to win FOUR STRAIGHT PENNANTS. Here are the top WS players on each of those 4 teams.
    Of course it's debateable who's the worst, though the consensus here seems to think it's Kelly. It's interesting you make that point though because you seem to think it's a non-debateable fact that McCarthy is the worst. So with Kelly we can have a debate but with McCarthy we can't?

    And I think it's extremely fair to punish Kelly for Frisch being a jerk. The fact that we're even discussing Kelly in this project is a direct result of Frisch being a jerk. The only reason Kelly is in the Hall is because Frisch was a jerk and it is thus very fair, IMO, to subjectively hold that against him.

    I have to be honest, your persistence here has actually strengthened my resolve in making Kelly last. Before, I separated the two by the slimmest of margins simply because I had to. But you've now helped me to believe I made the right choice.

    jjpm, thank you for clarifying cronyism vs. nepotism.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 07-06-2012, 03:41 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
      Of course it's debateable who's the worst, though the consensus here seems to think it's Kelly. It's interesting you make that point though because you seem to think it's a non-debateable fact that McCarthy is the worst. So with Kelly we can have a debate but with McCarthy we can't?
      Even YOU said that Kelly was a better player than McCarthy. It's not a "concensus" that Kelly is the "worst" player, by the way. Only 3 of the 9 voters so far think that Kelly was the least deserving, the same number as think McCarthy was the least deserving player. That is NOT a "consensus." Kelly trails because there are two voters who se McCarthy as one of the top 4 from the remaining guys.

      So far the group sees Kelly as less deserving than McCarthy, but some (like you) don't think McCarthy was a better player than Kelly. You've already said that the main reason that you're listing McCarthy ahead of Kelly is because McCarthy went into the HOF in 1946, and that those voters must have had a reason to think he belonged.

      My latest research shows that McCarthy rode in on the coat tails of Hugh Duffy. Apparently this "Heavenly Twins" thing was big back in the 19th century. Same reason why Tinker, Evers and Chance all went in together, although all three are much more deserving that McCarthy.

      Kelly was voted in 41 years after he retired. MCCarthy was voted in 50 years after HE retired, so actually Kelly went in sooner than McCarthy, in relation to their careers.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
        And I think it's extremely fair to punish Kelly for Frisch being a jerk. The fact that we're even discussing Kelly in this project is a direct result of Frisch being a jerk. The only reason Kelly is in the Hall is because Frisch was a jerk and it is thus very fair, IMO, to subjectively hold that against him.
        But it should not be held against Kelly any more than it's held against Youngs, Hafey, Haines, Lindstrom, Jackson and Bottomley.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
          I have to be honest, your persistence here has actually strengthened my resolve in making Kelly last. Before, I separated the two by the slimmest of margins simply because I had to. But you've now helped me to believe I made the right choice.
          Sounds like you're guilty of being like Frisch. You're allowing your personal feelings about my persistence influence your ballot, rather than just judging the candidates on their merits.

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          • #35
            By the way, there is MORE of a "consensus" that McCarthy is among the two least deserving players than there is that Kelly is among the two least deserving players.

            So far McCarthy is listed either 10th or 11th on 6 of the 9 ballots that have been submitted. Kelly is only 10th or 11th on 5 of the ballots. McCarrthy is only ahead because of two voters who somehow think that he's among the top 4 who remain.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
              In his most recent statements, he named McCarthy as the worst HOFer.
              Ah. Well, glad we're all in agreement then :cap:

              I think it's kind of neat that someone has taken up the mantle of finding out who's truly worst... although didn't the BBF community try to rank the HoF from the bottom up some time ago? Who was "voted out" first?
              http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

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              • #37
                Originally posted by J W View Post
                Ah. Well, glad we're all in agreement then :cap:

                I think it's kind of neat that someone has taken up the mantle of finding out who's truly worst... although didn't the BBF community try to rank the HoF from the bottom up some time ago? Who was "voted out" first?
                I missed that, but I'd like to see the thread.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                  Sounds like you're guilty of being like Frisch. You're allowing your personal feelings about my persistence influence your ballot, rather than just judging the candidates on their merits.
                  Taking this to a personal level will not win people over to your side.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                    Taking this to a personal level will not win people over to your side.
                    Are you saying that people will do something other than rank the players based on their merits?

                    Comment


                    • #40

                      Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                      Sounds like you're guilty of being like Frisch. You're allowing your personal feelings about my persistence influence your ballot, rather than just judging the candidates on their merits.
                      Not at all. Your persistence (though increasingly annoying and disrespectful), has caused me to think more about my position, with the result being for me to further entrench in my position.

                      Also, your comment about Kelly getting in sooner in relation to the end of his career is just a pointless comment given that the Hall didn't exist at all for the first 40 years after Kelly's career ended. I imagine if the roles were reversed here and I attempted that point, you'd be jumping down my throat.

                      I'd also note that with just 8 to 9 voters, it seems rather rash to be so dismissive of two voters who put McCarthy in their top 4. Those two voters comprise a large portion of our electorate and can't be discounted as part of our collective consensus.

                      And with that, I'm done with this conversation. As I mentioned at the outset, we both have both players in our bottom three, so in the grand scheme of the universe, we see this as remarkably similar anyway. If for some reason you can't get past whatever you can't get past, that's your problem, but I feel like this has now gone beyond productive discourse.
                      Last edited by DoubleX; 07-07-2012, 04:58 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by J W View Post
                        Ah. Well, glad we're all in agreement then :cap:

                        I think it's kind of neat that someone has taken up the mantle of finding out who's truly worst... although didn't the BBF community try to rank the HoF from the bottom up some time ago? Who was "voted out" first?
                        I tried to launch a project which took the memberships of Cooperstown, BBF HOF, BBTF HOM, the Progressive HOF project and the Best of Baseball project and try to vote them off. There simply wasn't the interest (we had only 3 or 4 voters IIRC), and I didn't bother to compile the results.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                          As I mentioned at the outset, we both have both players in our bottom three,
                          I no longer have Kelly in my bottom three. I rearranged my ballot after digging deeper into the last 11 players.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DoubleX View Post



                            Not at all. Your persistence (though increasingly annoying and disrespectful), has caused me to think more about my position, with the result being for me to further entrench in my position.
                            Since I did not discover anything good about McCarthy that was not already known, you must be saying that something that I posted about Kelly makes him seem even less deserving than you thought?

                            Was it that he was among the top 4 in RBIs in the National League for 4 consecutive seasons?

                            Or that he was among the top 6 in HRs in the National League for 7 consecutive seasons?

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                            • #44
                              Here's where the position players rank on Baseball-Reference:

                              401 - Lloyd Waner
                              404 - Fred Lindstrom
                              451 - Chick Hafey
                              492 - Rick Ferrell
                              523 - George Kelly
                              730 - Tommy McCarthy
                              747 - Ray Schalk

                              And the pitchers:

                              172 - Rube Marquard
                              198 - Jesse Haines

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                              • #45
                                I checked the archives on Double X's "Progresive Hall Of Fame."

                                Here's what was there for vote totals for McCarthy and Kelly.

                                McCarthy
                                1901 - 1 (zamtech)
                                1902 - 0
                                1903 - 1 (bambambaseball)
                                1904 - 0

                                Kelly
                                1937 - 1
                                1938 - 3 (one of the voters was jjpm74)
                                1939 - 2
                                1940 - 2
                                1941 - 1
                                Last edited by SavoyBG; 07-07-2012, 11:41 AM.

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