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  • Inner Circle Hall of Famers

    This blog put together an Inner Circle Hall of Famer vote. They asked people to vote for the top 50 players in the Hall of Fame.

    http://baseballpastandpresent.com/20...l-fame-circle/
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    Really not a bad list. Some are the rankings are skewed IMO, but it's pretty solid. The only names I see causing trouble on this forum would be Clemente, Ryan, and Koufax.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
      Really not a bad list. Some are the rankings are skewed IMO, but it's pretty solid. The only names I see causing trouble on this forum would be Clemente, Ryan, and Koufax.
      Gwynn is not top 50.

      Comment


      • #4
        They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

        It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.
        Last edited by drstrangelove; 07-19-2012, 03:49 PM.
        "It's better to look good, than be good."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
          They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

          It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.
          The list is only for players already in the Hall of Fame.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
            They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

            It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.
            You cite WAR, so you must be at least somewhat "okay" with it, at least enough to use it to support Clemente...

            But then you dismiss Gibson, who is 12th all-time for eligible pitchers and right behind Niekro and Blyleven, who both have worse peaks than Gibson.
            Also, Gibson is only 4 WAR behind Clemente with one season at hand. Oh yeah, he was great in the postseason too, like Clemente.
            So, for a man ranked 39 of all eligible (for this project) players according to WAR + a great postseason resume, top 50 doesn't seem to hard to believe whatsoever.

            If you do not like WAR, just say so, but Gibson's sabermetric case fully supports his 60's-70's perception. And it will be hard to make a case for Clemente but not Gibson using sabermetrics. If WAR is good enough for the goose...

            So we can see that sabermetrics is all-in on Gibson and so is perception of traditionalists and those that saw him. So where is the disconnect for you?
            Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 07-19-2012, 04:42 PM.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

            Comment


            • #7
              Someone from the blog posted this on another forum. The inner circle that I came up with...

              C (3): Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Josh Gibson

              1B (3): Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Cap Anson

              2B (5): Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson

              3B (4): Eddie Mathews, Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, George Brett

              SS (2): Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr.

              OF (15): Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Ty Cobb, Frank Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Tris Speaker, Roberto Clemente, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Kaline, Mel Ott

              SP (12): Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kid Nichols, Tom Seaver, Pete Alexander, Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, Satchel Paige, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller, Steve Carlton

              That's 44 total; 32 hitters and 12 pitchers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                This blog put together an Inner Circle Hall of Famer vote. They asked people to vote for the top 50 players in the Hall of Fame.

                http://baseballpastandpresent.com/20...l-fame-circle/
                I ran a project here at BBF a couple years aago that established an Inner Circle: The Seven Circles of Fame.

                Here are the top 50 from that project;

                Level 1 - The Immortals
                Top 25%
                1) Babe Ruth
                2) Ty Cobb
                3) Honus Wagner
                4) Willie Mays
                Mid-level
                5) Ted Williams
                6) Walter Johnson
                7) Stan Musial
                8) Hank Aaron
                9) Mickey Mantle
                10) Lou Gehrig
                11) Tris Speaker
                Lower 25%
                12) Rogers Hornsby
                13) Cy Young
                14) Oscar Charleston
                15) Eddie Collins
                Level 2 - The Inner Circle
                Top 25%
                16) Pete Alexander
                17) Josh Gibson
                18) Mike Schmidt
                19) Lefty Grove
                20) Frank Robinson
                21) Joe DiMaggio
                Mid-level
                22) Nap Lajoie
                23) Mel Ott
                24) Jimmie Foxx
                25) Satchel Paige
                26) C. Mathewson
                27) Tom Seaver
                28) Joe Morgan
                29) Warren Spahn
                30) R. Henderson
                31) Eddie Mathews
                32) Johnny Bench
                33) Pop Lloyd
                Lower 25%
                34) George Brett
                35) Yogi Berra
                36) Cap Anson
                37) Turkey Stearnes
                38) Dan Brouthers
                39) Cal Ripken
                Level 3 - The All-Time Greats
                Top 25%
                40) Kid Nichols
                41) Jackie Robinson
                42) Ed Delahanty
                43) Charlie Gehringer
                44) Arky Vaughan
                45) Steve Carlton
                46) Wade Boggs
                47) Johnny Mize
                48) Bob Feller
                Mid-level
                49) Carl Yastrzemski
                50) Reggie Jackson
                Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                  The list is only for players already in the Hall of Fame.
                  thx, I knew I must have missed something....time to move up to third grade reading!
                  "It's better to look good, than be good."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                    You cite WAR, so you must be at least somewhat "okay" with it, at least enough to use it to support Clemente...

                    But then you dismiss Gibson, who is 12th all-time for eligible pitchers and right behind Niekro and Blyleven, who both have worse peaks than Gibson.
                    Also, Gibson is only 4 WAR behind Clemente with one season at hand. Oh yeah, he was great in the postseason too, like Clemente.
                    So, for a man ranked 39 of all eligible (for this project) players according to WAR + a great postseason resume, top 50 doesn't seem to hard to believe whatsoever.

                    If you do not like WAR, just say so, but Gibson's sabermetric case fully supports his 60's-70's perception. And it will be hard to make a case for Clemente but not Gibson using sabermetrics. If WAR is good enough for the goose...

                    So we can see that sabermetrics is all-in on Gibson and so is perception of traditionalists and those that saw him. So where is the disconnect for you?
                    I'm not sure I get your point. Gibson was not a top 50 player if you go just by WAR, Clemente was.

                    My point about Gibson stands: he had less WAR than Johnson and Maddux AND he pitched 40 years ago. But I understand now that they had to exclude people not in the HoF, so it makes sense that he would be rated higher. Same issue for Spahn.
                    "It's better to look good, than be good."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
                      I'm not sure I get your point. Gibson was not a top 50 player if you go just by WAR, Clemente was.

                      My point about Gibson stands: he had less WAR than Johnson and Maddux AND he pitched 40 years ago. But I understand now that they had to exclude people not in the HoF, so it makes sense that he would be rated higher. Same issue for Spahn.
                      Not sure what you are looking at. Baseball Reference's version, right? Gibson ranks 43rd all-time in WAR including Johnson, Maddux, Pujols, A-Rod etc. He ranks 37th of all eligible-for-the-list players. He moves up a little if you look at his peak and postseason too.

                      The point is, it appears odd to use WAR to boost a player with 89.9 WAR in the equivalent of 17 full seasons and then dismiss a player with 85.4 WAR in the equivalent of 15 full seasons. For careers 17-18 years long, a 4 WAR difference is M.O.E relative nothingness.
                      Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 07-19-2012, 09:58 PM.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nice read OP . I can live with DiMaggio at 13. I saw a list on the thread where was 21. Way to low.

                        Further comments on the Op's link

                        quite a disparity between putting Mays at #1 and a recent thread where the OP didn't list Mays his 10 top 10 right handed hitters

                        Rated too high; Joe Morgan ( how can he rate over Eddie Collins whose peak was at least 10 years longer?) and Brett (24th?),

                        Shouldn't be on: Clemente, Kaline, Gwynn

                        Should be on; Brouthers, Delahanty, Marichal

                        Ryan, Bob Gibson, Brooks Robinson, and Koufax are ranked about right.

                        And thank goodness no Boggs.
                        This week's Giant

                        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                          Not sure what you are looking at. Baseball Reference's version, right? Gibson ranks 43rd all-time in WAR including Johnson, Maddux, Pujols, A-Rod etc. He ranks 37th of all eligible-for-the-list players. He moves up a little if you look at his peak and postseason too.

                          The point is, it appears odd to use WAR to boost a player with 89.9 WAR in the equivalent of 17 full seasons and then dismiss a player with 85.4 WAR in the equivalent of 15 full seasons. For careers 17-18 years long, a 4 WAR difference is M.O.E relative nothingness.
                          1) You have Gibson at 85.4 because you give him credit for batting, which is something over 50% of the pitchers have not been allowed to do for 40 years. I think that's a debatable method. I agree that if you do it that way, that he is in the top 45, but I don't compare them that way because it no longer appears proper to do so.

                          2) I still wouldn't have him in my top 50. I don't think he beats out Koufax, Feller, Jackie Robinson, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Paige, DiMaggio or Bonds (pre-steroid only).
                          "It's better to look good, than be good."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
                            1) You have Gibson at 85.4 because you give him credit for batting, which is something over 50% of the pitchers have not been allowed to do for 40 years. I think that's a debatable method. I agree that if you do it that way, that he is in the top 45, but I don't compare them that way because it no longer appears proper to do so.

                            2) I still wouldn't have him in my top 50. I don't think he beats out Koufax, Feller, Jackie Robinson, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Paige, DiMaggio or Bonds (pre-steroid only).
                            But a large majority of pitchers who are eligible for the list did bat. It is more unfair to exclude the majority than to include the minority. And again, if you do not want to count the wins above replacement (which really helped his team win real games) that he contributed with his bat, don't use WAR. I did a study that showed only about 15% of the top 200 WAR pitchers of all-time lacked any meaningful NL Ab's. Very few pitchers even is discussion of this list were AL only pitchers post 1972. And out of those, very few would have offensive WAR good or bad enough to make much of a ranking difference. Even if the post DH era, mostly Al pitchers pass up the hitting pitchers, I will still consider batting WAR for pitchers; those are real runs that they created for their teams and helped them win real games. Now if I am directly comparing Greg Maddux with Mike Mussina, I would leave it out, but when I am making a list of all eligible HOFers, I want to know every way that any of them contributed.

                            If you don't think he is top 50...fine. I have no problems with that. You can make cases based on a lot of things...just don't say he isn't WARtastic enough, when he obviously is.
                            Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 07-20-2012, 02:34 PM.
                            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I just ran some numbers with the new WAR.

                              There have been 246 primary starters who have achieved 30+ WAR. OF those 246, 29 had fewer than 6 full seasons as NL hitters. I know 6 is a pretty arbitrary number, but I felt pretty sure that most everybody would be pretty confident evaluating a pitcher's offense after 6 years. That is 11.8%.

                              Of those 29 pitchers, lets be reasonable and say that 2/3 of them would not hit well or poorly enough to make much of a WAR difference at all. That leaves about 10 pitchers in the history of the league who may be treated "unfairly" by including offensive WAR for pitchers. Applying the same 30% estimate to the other 246, and we get 71 pitchers who would be unfairly treated by excluding the real contributions they made offensively.

                              There is no circumstance whatsoever in which I will pretend than Don Drysdale hitting .300 with 12 XBH in 1965 did not happen. And yes, this was a rare season, but the batting influence of many, many pitchers has made large, meaningful, and quantifiable impacts for their teams for decades. I cannot ignore that just because the AL made a rule one day.
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                              Comment

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