Inner Circle Hall of Famers

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This blog put together an Inner Circle Hall of Famer vote. They asked people to vote for the top 50 players in the Hall of Fame.

http://baseballpastandpresent.com/2012/07/19/hall-fame-circle/

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Really not a bad list. Some are the rankings are skewed IMO, but it's pretty solid. The only names I see causing trouble on this forum would be Clemente, Ryan, and Koufax.

[SavoyBG]

Really not a bad list. Some are the rankings are skewed IMO, but it's pretty solid. The only names I see causing trouble on this forum would be Clemente, Ryan, and Koufax.

Gwynn is not top 50.

[drstrangelove]

They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.

The list is only for players already in the Hall of Fame.

[Bothrops Atrox]

They missed Maddux and Randy Johnson, but they have Spahn and Gibson, which is startling. Brooks should not be on the list. Clemente is 26th in total WAR, and was great in the post season, so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

It's hard to know if they were 'thinking' of career, peak or post season. Even if you tell people to only consider career, folks from the 60's and 70's just feel Koufax and Gibson were much better than what they did on the field. Clemente certainly wasn't hurt by that.

You cite WAR, so you must be at least somewhat "okay" with it, at least enough to use it to support Clemente...

But then you dismiss Gibson, who is 12th all-time for eligible pitchers and right behind Niekro and Blyleven, who both have worse peaks than Gibson.
Also, Gibson is only 4 WAR behind Clemente with one season at hand. Oh yeah, he was great in the postseason too, like Clemente.
So, for a man ranked 39 of all eligible (for this project) players according to WAR + a great postseason resume, top 50 doesn't seem to hard to believe whatsoever.

If you do not like WAR, just say so, but Gibson's sabermetric case fully supports his 60's-70's perception. And it will be hard to make a case for Clemente but not Gibson using sabermetrics. If WAR is good enough for the goose...

So we can see that sabermetrics is all-in on Gibson and so is perception of traditionalists and those that saw him. So where is the disconnect for you?

[EnterSandman]

Someone from the blog posted this on another forum. The inner circle that I came up with...

C (3): Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Josh Gibson

1B (3): Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Cap Anson

2B (5): Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson

3B (4): Eddie Mathews, Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, George Brett

SS (2): Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr.

OF (15): Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Ty Cobb, Frank Robinson, Rickey Henderson, Tris Speaker, Roberto Clemente, Carl Yastrzemski, Al Kaline, Mel Ott

SP (12): Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kid Nichols, Tom Seaver, Pete Alexander, Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, Satchel Paige, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller, Steve Carlton

That's 44 total; 32 hitters and 12 pitchers.

[Freakshow]

This blog put together an Inner Circle Hall of Famer vote. They asked people to vote for the top 50 players in the Hall of Fame.

http://baseballpastandpresent.com/20...l-fame-circle/

I ran a project here at BBF a couple years aago that established an Inner Circle: The Seven Circles of Fame.

Here are the top 50 from that project;

Level 1 - The Immortals
Top 25%
1) Babe Ruth
2) Ty Cobb
3) Honus Wagner
4) Willie Mays
Mid-level
5) Ted Williams
6) Walter Johnson
7) Stan Musial
8) Hank Aaron
9) Mickey Mantle
10) Lou Gehrig
11) Tris Speaker
Lower 25%
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Cy Young
14) Oscar Charleston
15) Eddie Collins
Level 2 - The Inner Circle
Top 25%
16) Pete Alexander
17) Josh Gibson
18) Mike Schmidt
19) Lefty Grove
20) Frank Robinson
21) Joe DiMaggio
Mid-level
22) Nap Lajoie
23) Mel Ott
24) Jimmie Foxx
25) Satchel Paige
26) C. Mathewson
27) Tom Seaver
28) Joe Morgan
29) Warren Spahn
30) R. Henderson
31) Eddie Mathews
32) Johnny Bench
33) Pop Lloyd
Lower 25%
34) George Brett
35) Yogi Berra
36) Cap Anson
37) Turkey Stearnes
38) Dan Brouthers
39) Cal Ripken
Level 3 - The All-Time Greats
Top 25%
40) Kid Nichols
41) Jackie Robinson
42) Ed Delahanty
43) Charlie Gehringer
44) Arky Vaughan
45) Steve Carlton
46) Wade Boggs
47) Johnny Mize
48) Bob Feller
Mid-level
49) Carl Yastrzemski
50) Reggie Jackson

[drstrangelove]

The list is only for players already in the Hall of Fame.

thx, I knew I must have missed something....time to move up to third grade reading!

[drstrangelove]

You cite WAR, so you must be at least somewhat "okay" with it, at least enough to use it to support Clemente...

But then you dismiss Gibson, who is 12th all-time for eligible pitchers and right behind Niekro and Blyleven, who both have worse peaks than Gibson.
Also, Gibson is only 4 WAR behind Clemente with one season at hand. Oh yeah, he was great in the postseason too, like Clemente.
So, for a man ranked 39 of all eligible (for this project) players according to WAR + a great postseason resume, top 50 doesn't seem to hard to believe whatsoever.

If you do not like WAR, just say so, but Gibson's sabermetric case fully supports his 60's-70's perception. And it will be hard to make a case for Clemente but not Gibson using sabermetrics. If WAR is good enough for the goose...

So we can see that sabermetrics is all-in on Gibson and so is perception of traditionalists and those that saw him. So where is the disconnect for you?

I'm not sure I get your point. Gibson was not a top 50 player if you go just by WAR, Clemente was.

My point about Gibson stands: he had less WAR than Johnson and Maddux AND he pitched 40 years ago. But I understand now that they had to exclude people not in the HoF, so it makes sense that he would be rated higher. Same issue for Spahn.

[Bothrops Atrox]

I'm not sure I get your point. Gibson was not a top 50 player if you go just by WAR, Clemente was.

My point about Gibson stands: he had less WAR than Johnson and Maddux AND he pitched 40 years ago. But I understand now that they had to exclude people not in the HoF, so it makes sense that he would be rated higher. Same issue for Spahn.

Not sure what you are looking at. Baseball Reference's version, right? Gibson ranks 43rd all-time in WAR including Johnson, Maddux, Pujols, A-Rod etc. He ranks 37th of all eligible-for-the-list players. He moves up a little if you look at his peak and postseason too.

The point is, it appears odd to use WAR to boost a player with 89.9 WAR in the equivalent of 17 full seasons and then dismiss a player with 85.4 WAR in the equivalent of 15 full seasons. For careers 17-18 years long, a 4 WAR difference is M.O.E relative nothingness.

[JR Hart]

Nice read OP . I can live with DiMaggio at 13. I saw a list on the thread where was 21. Way to low.

Further comments on the Op's link

quite a disparity between putting Mays at #1 and a recent thread where the OP didn't list Mays his 10 top 10 right handed hitters

Rated too high; Joe Morgan ( how can he rate over Eddie Collins whose peak was at least 10 years longer?) and Brett (24th?),

Shouldn't be on: Clemente, Kaline, Gwynn

Should be on; Brouthers, Delahanty, Marichal

Ryan, Bob Gibson, Brooks Robinson, and Koufax are ranked about right.

And thank goodness no Boggs.

[drstrangelove]

Not sure what you are looking at. Baseball Reference's version, right? Gibson ranks 43rd all-time in WAR including Johnson, Maddux, Pujols, A-Rod etc. He ranks 37th of all eligible-for-the-list players. He moves up a little if you look at his peak and postseason too.

The point is, it appears odd to use WAR to boost a player with 89.9 WAR in the equivalent of 17 full seasons and then dismiss a player with 85.4 WAR in the equivalent of 15 full seasons. For careers 17-18 years long, a 4 WAR difference is M.O.E relative nothingness.

1) You have Gibson at 85.4 because you give him credit for batting, which is something over 50% of the pitchers have not been allowed to do for 40 years. I think that's a debatable method. I agree that if you do it that way, that he is in the top 45, but I don't compare them that way because it no longer appears proper to do so.

2) I still wouldn't have him in my top 50. I don't think he beats out Koufax, Feller, Jackie Robinson, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Paige, DiMaggio or Bonds (pre-steroid only).

[Bothrops Atrox]

1) You have Gibson at 85.4 because you give him credit for batting, which is something over 50% of the pitchers have not been allowed to do for 40 years. I think that's a debatable method. I agree that if you do it that way, that he is in the top 45, but I don't compare them that way because it no longer appears proper to do so.

2) I still wouldn't have him in my top 50. I don't think he beats out Koufax, Feller, Jackie Robinson, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Paige, DiMaggio or Bonds (pre-steroid only).

But a large majority of pitchers who are eligible for the list did bat. It is more unfair to exclude the majority than to include the minority. And again, if you do not want to count the wins above replacement (which really helped his team win real games) that he contributed with his bat, don't use WAR. I did a study that showed only about 15% of the top 200 WAR pitchers of all-time lacked any meaningful NL Ab's. Very few pitchers even is discussion of this list were AL only pitchers post 1972. And out of those, very few would have offensive WAR good or bad enough to make much of a ranking difference. Even if the post DH era, mostly Al pitchers pass up the hitting pitchers, I will still consider batting WAR for pitchers; those are real runs that they created for their teams and helped them win real games. Now if I am directly comparing Greg Maddux with Mike Mussina, I would leave it out, but when I am making a list of all eligible HOFers, I want to know every way that any of them contributed.

If you don't think he is top 50...fine. I have no problems with that. You can make cases based on a lot of things...just don't say he isn't WARtastic enough, when he obviously is.

[Bothrops Atrox]

I just ran some numbers with the new WAR.

There have been 246 primary starters who have achieved 30+ WAR. OF those 246, 29 had fewer than 6 full seasons as NL hitters. I know 6 is a pretty arbitrary number, but I felt pretty sure that most everybody would be pretty confident evaluating a pitcher's offense after 6 years. That is 11.8%.

Of those 29 pitchers, lets be reasonable and say that 2/3 of them would not hit well or poorly enough to make much of a WAR difference at all. That leaves about 10 pitchers in the history of the league who may be treated "unfairly" by including offensive WAR for pitchers. Applying the same 30% estimate to the other 246, and we get 71 pitchers who would be unfairly treated by excluding the real contributions they made offensively.

There is no circumstance whatsoever in which I will pretend than Don Drysdale hitting .300 with 12 XBH in 1965 did not happen. And yes, this was a rare season, but the batting influence of many, many pitchers has made large, meaningful, and quantifiable impacts for their teams for decades. I cannot ignore that just because the AL made a rule one day.