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  • jalbright
    Rule 9 says two weeks per election. I prefer that for my own pace and also to allow people who are on vacation for a week a chance.

    I thought about expanding the ballot for years like that, but I'm concerned that increasing the size of the required ballot might scare people away. I went to a 15 man player ballot to deal with the issue. I think I'll try it the way I've outlined for at least 1945 and see how that goes before I change anything. If it seems like a potential problem based on our experience in 1945, I may well do something like you suggest for 1946. If it seems OK in 1945, I'll probably try leaving it alone in 1946.

    It will be really interesting to see if we can sustain the contributor ballot with as many breaks as there will be in the voting. But, given the design of the project, I think if sustaining interest in the contributor ballot doesn't happen, we'll just go with the players.

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  • jjpm74
    Nice idea. Some suggestions:

    --For 1946, expand the ballot to 20 as 11 is a large group.
    --for 2006, expand the ballot to 25 as 14 is a large group.
    --Run the elections in 1 or 2 week increments. In any project we have here, you basically get a flurry of votes at the beginning and sometimes a handful at the end with nothing in between.

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  • jalbright
    I'm looking for feedback here, which I didn't make clear.

    Some things I'm looking for are:

    will you participate?
    is it different enough from other projects we've had to interest you, didn't you participate in some of the earlier projects, or do you just want a project here to participate in?
    any changes you think would improve on the idea,
    any other suggestions/thoughts you'd care to add.

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  • jalbright
    I'm thinking of starting this project the weekend after Labor Day

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  • jalbright
    I've got to have a name for the project. The best I can come up with is BaseBall Fever Actual Induction Rate Hall Of Fame or BBFAIR HOF. It's hardly perfect, so I'll listen to other suggestions.

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  • jalbright
    The actual pace of inductions:

    Year	players	total		contribs	total
    1936	5	5			0
    1937	3	8		5	5
    1938	1	9		2	7
    1939	7	16		3	10
    1942	1	17		1	11
    1945	9	26		1	12
    1946	11	37			12
    1947	4	41			12
    1948	2	43			12
    1949	3	46			12
    1951	2	48			12
    1952	2	50			12
    1953	4	54		4	16
    1954	3	57			16
    1955	6	63			16
    1956	2	65			16
    1957	1	66		1	17
    1959	1	67			17
    1961	2	69			17
    1962	3	72		1	18
    1963	4	76			18
    1964	6	82		1	19
    1965	1	83			19
    1966	1	84		1	20
    1967	2	86		1	21
    1968	3	89			21
    1969	4	93			21
    1970	3	96		1	22
    1971	7	103			22
    1972	8	111		1	23
    1973	5	116		1	24
    1974	5	121		1	25
    1975	4	125		1	26
    1976	6	131		1	27
    1977	5	136			27
    1978	2	138		1	28
    1979	2	140		1	29
    1980	3	143		1	30
    1981	2	145		1	31
    1982	3	148		1	32
    1983	3	151		1	33
    1984	5	156			33
    1985	4	160			33
    1986	2	162			33
    1987	3	165			33
    1988	1	166			33
    1989	3	169		1	34
    1990	2	171			34
    1991	4	175		1	35
    1992	3	178		1	36
    1993	1	179			36
    1994	2	181		1	37
    1995	4	185		1	38
    1996	2	187		2	40
    1997	3	190		1	41
    1998	4	194		1	42
    1999	5	199		2	44
    2000	4	203		1	45
    2001	4	207			45
    2002	1	208			45
    2003	2	210			45
    2004	2	212			45
    2005	2	214			45
    2006	14	228		5	50
    2007	2	230			50
    2008	1	231		3	53
    2009	3	234			53
    2010	1	235		2	55
    2011	2	237		1	56
    2012	2	239			56
    We will skip years, but I will run elections back to back. I did finesse 1944's induction of only one contributor by moving it to 1945, when players were also inducted.
    Last edited by jalbright; 08-23-2012, 10:08 AM.

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  • jalbright
    I'll highlight the changes from the Best of Baseball project:

    1) We're going to elect candidates at the pace the Hall inducted its members. I will, as with the prior project, allow Japanese players and Pete Rose and Joe Jackson if the voters desire. Overall, we will be able to compare ourselves to Cooperstown at any time in this project, and we will also be experiencing the effect of the erratic pace of inductions to Cooperstown.

    2) Contributor eligibility is the same as the previous project. Player eligibility has changed in rule seven:

    Players will become eligible at the earliest of the following three criteria:
    a) the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date;
    b) the first missed season after the player reaches age 40; and
    c) five years after the player’s career ended.
    3) Player ballots will be 15 and contributor ballots 6. The point total for players is 21 minus their ranking, and for contributors it's 9 minus the ranking. I want being on a ballot to be more important in this election, especially in those elections where we're electing 4 or more contributors or 9 or more players. That's reaching rather deep in the pool, and I want to emphasize votes for candidates over few high rankings

    4) I've tweaked the rules for breaking ties. The criteria used will be the same, but I'm starting with the number of votes received as the first tiebreaker. See rule 18.

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  • jalbright
    started a topic New project idea

    New project idea

    I've adapted the following rules from the Best of Baseball project to fit a new idea I have:

    1) BBF users in good standing may participate, provided they have not been banned from multiple projects in this forum. Anyone who has been told his or her votes will not count in more than one project in this forum will not have his or her vote counted unless he or she applies to the project manager for the right to vote and gets that request granted. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a eight (8) voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. Each year Cooperstown elected a player, we will vote for our top 15 players ranked #1 through 15, Points will be awarded on the basis of 21 minus the rank, so first will be worth 20 ponts, 2d 19 points and so on down to 6 pts for 15th. We will induct the same number of players the Hall did in that year. Some years, the Hall inducted no one, and those years, we will not either. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, and will elect as many as were inducted that year. Contributors will be ranked 1 through6, with points awarded 9-8-7-6-5-4. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both. There will be many years without a contributor ballot, as many years no contributors were inducted.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players will become eligible at the earliest of the following three criteria:
    a) the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date;
    b) the first missed season after the player reaches age 40; and
    c) five years after the player’s career ended.
    Please note that the Negro Leagues will be considered ended in 1952 for purposes of this rule.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 18th in a 15 person ballot instead of one of the top 15, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 30th best eligible candidate on a 15 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 15th place for any ballot will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first tiebreaker is the number of candidates. If there Is still a tie for first, the next consideration is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
    Last edited by jalbright; 08-23-2012, 10:15 AM.

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