Please rate these 20 Prospective HOFers

[JR Hart]

The last thread of this kind went very well with over 20 responses. I appreciate the feedback and especially like when posters add notes to their response. Please rate the next 20 players. The grading scale remains the same.


5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
4- Has a good case
3- marginal, has some merit
2-comes up short
1-are you kidding me?


Omar Visquel
Scott Rolen
Andruw Jones
Albert Belle
Jeff Bagwell
Jim Thome
Jeff Biggio
Tim Raines
Jim Kaat
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Bobby Grich
Dwight Evans
Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Edmonds
Mike Mussina
Kevin Brown
Louis Tiant
Tommy John
Brett Saberhagen

[JR Hart]

Sorry about the butchered typos on the title I couldn't correct it, once it was up

[Bothrops Atrox]

Omar Visquel -2
Scott Rolen- 4
Andruw Jones -4
Albert Belle -3
Jeff Bagwell -5
Jim Thome -5
Jeff Biggio -5
Tim Raines -4
Jim Kaat -2
Edgar Martinez-4
Larry Walker -4
Bobby Grich -4
Dwight Evans-3
Vladimir Guerrer-4
Jim Edmonds-4
Mike Mussina-5
Kevin Brown-4
Louis Tiant-4
Tommy John-3
Brett Saberhagen-4

[willshad]

The last thread of this kind went very well with over 20 responses. I appreciate the feedback and especially like when posters add notes to their response. Please rate the next 20 players. The grading scale remains the same.


5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
4- Has a good case
3- marginal, has some merit
2-comes up short
1-are you kidding me?


Omar Visquel 2 Not enough offense, even for a shortstop.
Scott Rolen 2 declined too early...up until age 30 or so was on a god pace.
Andruw Jones 3 depends how much you value defense.
Albert Belle 3 among the best hitters of the 90s, even counting the juicers
Jeff Bagwell 5 All around play makes him a slam dunk.
Jim Thome 5 One of the 5 or 10 best home run hitters ever.
Jeff Biggio 5 Absolutely no precedence for keeping him out.
Tim Raines 4 stopped being a star at a young age, but a fairly valuable guy for a long time
Jim Kaat 1 Too many pitchers from that era in already.
Edgar Martinez 3 OPS+ is walk heavy, and doesnt have great career counting stats.
Larry Walker 3 see above about the counting stats, prob needs more for his park and era.
Bobby Grich 3 overrated by sabermetrivs, underrated by traditional stats.
Dwight Evans 3 see above.
Vladimir Guerrero 5 No precedence for keeping him out.
Jim Edmonds 4 Probably top 10 all time at his position.
Mike Mussina 4 High ERA, but a top 40 pitcher.
Kevin Brown 2 good enough, but was a juicer.
Louis Tiant 2 Not enough good seasons for me. inconsistent.
Tommy John 3 a lot from his er already enshrined, but his win total is hard to keep out.
Brett Saberhagen

3 slightly better version of Tiant.

[willshad]

What the heck happened to my post?

[EnterSandman]

Omar Visquel - 2
Scott Rolen - 4
Andruw Jones - 4
Albert Belle - 2
Jeff Bagwell - 5
Jim Thome - 4
Craig Biggio - 5
Tim Raines - 5
Jim Kaat - 2
Edgar Martinez - 4.5
Larry Walker - 4.5
Bobby Grich - 4.5
Dwight Evans - 3
Vladimir Guerrero - 4.5
Jim Edmonds - 3
Mike Mussina - 4.5
Kevin Brown - 4
Louis Tiant - 3
Tommy John - 2
Brett Saberhagen - 1

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Omar Vizquel- 2. Simply not enough offense.
Scott Rolen- 3. I'm not a big Rolen fan. Despite great defense, he never really caught on in the offense. Needs to be a better hitter for me.
Andruw Jones- 2. Superb defense, but didn't last long enough. Also, too much trouble hitting the ball; homers came in a home run era.
Albert Belle- 2. Didn't play long enough in an high offensive era. Also a PED user.
Jeff Bagwell- 5. Simply too good.
Jim Thome- 4. Borderline 3 because of poor defense and the advantage of DHing.
Craig Biggio- 5. His rate stats aren't so hot because of the amount of games he played. Plus a good fielder.
Tim Raines- 4. Did everything well: running (awesome), hitting, power, and able to field many balls because of his speed.
Jim Kaat- 3? I'm not quite sure. Had some good years but let up a lot of runs.
Edgar Martinez- 4. Has the DH advantage, but wasn't a dreadful fielder like Thome. Great hitter.
Larry Walker- 5. Some inflated years due to play in Colorado, but always the terrific hitter with a cannon for an arm.
Bobby Grich- 5. An impressive fielder who made up for some contact deficiencies by getting on base or hitting an XBH. Even better considering that AL hitting was weak during his playing years.
Dwight Evans- 5. Greatest RFer to patrol Fenway, which isn't an easy thing. Also a great hitter wherever he played.
Vladimir Guerrero- 4. Very good for a long time. Don't listen to sabernauts; he got on base by hitting the ball, which is always better than walking. Not always the most reliable, but damn was that a strong arm even if not the most accurate.
Jim Edmonds- 5. Possibly the most skilled CFer because he made up for his average speed with great fielding plays.
Mike Mussina- 4. Extremely adaptable pitcher who threw about 11 different pitches. Though he played in a tough era in some tough parks, he did let up a lot of runs. Very durable, but never had that knockout season.
Kevin Brown- 3. PED user, which I believe led to his peak.
Luis Tiant- 3. Too many off-and-on seasons to be considered a lock-in
Tommy John- 3. Medical marvel, but never strong enough for me to want him in.
Brett Saberhagen- 2. Didn't maintain greatness

[Bothrops Atrox]

Almost 900 XBhits in barely 2,000 games and a 122 OPS+ is pretty darn good for a guy who never found it on offense.

[Cowtipper]

Omar Visquel - 4 ... underrated by some, overrated by others, he deserves to be in one day.
Scott Rolen - 3 ... I used to be on his bandwagon, but have since fallen off due to his inconsistency and lack of health.
Andruw Jones - 4 ... great defense, great peak should get him in.
Albert Belle - 4 ... not a no doubter, but pretty stinkin' awesome. Amazing peak.
Jeff Bagwell - 5 ... no doubter.
Jim Thome - 5 ... no doubter.
Jeff Biggio - 5 ... no doubter.
Tim Raines - 5 ... no doubter.
Jim Kaat - 4 ... see John below, plus he could field.
Edgar Martinez - 3 ... still not a fan of putting DH's in, but he was one of the best ever.
Larry Walker - 4 ... Hall of Famer for sure, knocked slightly for being a Rockie.
Bobby Grich - 3 ... wouldn't be a terrible choice.
Dwight Evans - 2 ... a two for now, there are more important guys to worry about getting in right now.
Vladimir Guerrero - 5 ... some may not agree, but I think he should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.
Jim Edmonds - 3 ... really needs that 2,000th hit and/or 400th home run to have a case.
Mike Mussina - 5 ... sure-fire Hall of Famer in my book, 300 wins be damned.
Kevin Brown - 3 ... wouldn't make me mad if he got in, but he wasn't the super disappointing omission some make him out to be.
Louis Tiant - 4 ... I've always had a 'thing' for Tiant.
Tommy John - 3 ... consistency is a good thing
Brett Saberhagen - 1 ... another WAR lovechild that really wasn't nearly as good as the WARriors try to claim.

[Cowtipper]

Andruw Jones- 2. Superb defense, but didn't last long enough. Also, too much trouble hitting the ball; homers came in a home run era.

Didn't last long enough?

20921.jpg

There was a 10 year stretch, from 1997 to 2006, where he was one of the best outfielders in the league, both offensively and defensively.

[leecemark]

Omar Visquel - 3
Scott Rolen - 3
Andruw Jones - 4
Albert Belle - 3
Jeff Bagwell - 5
Jim Thome - 5
Jeff Biggio - assume this should be craig, 5
Tim Raines - 5
Jim Kaat - 3
Edgar Martinez - 3
Larry Walker - 4
Bobby Grich - 5
Dwight Evans - 3
Vladimir Guerrero - 5
Jim Edmonds - 4
Mike Mussina - 5
Kevin Brown - 3
Louis Tiant - 3
Tommy John - 3
Brett Saberhagen - 3

[Sockeye]

Omar Visquel 2
Scott Rolen 3
Andruw Jones 5
Albert Belle 3
Jeff Bagwell 5
Jim Thome 5
Craig Biggio 5
Tim Raines 4
Jim Kaat 3
Edgar Martinez 3
Larry Walker 3
Bobby Grich 3
Dwight Evans 3
Vladimir Guerrero 5
Jim Edmonds 4
Mike Mussina 3
Kevin Brown 2
Louis Tiant 2
Tommy John 3
Brett Saberhagen 1

[jjpm74]

Omar Visquel 2 No offense and the most overrated active player.
Scott Rolen 2 No. His career came up way too short.
Andruw Jones 2 He fell apart the same year PEDs testing became prevalent.
Albert Belle 2 Career way too short + PEDs allegations.
Jeff Bagwell 4 Great player. The PEDs cloud may hurt him even though he is not directly implicated.
Jim Thome 5 One of the best home run hitters of all time. He should be a shoe in.
Craig Biggio 3 The least deserving 3000+ hit player.
Tim Raines 5 The fact that he is not already in is a travesty.
Jim Kaat 3 Good career. I wouldn't be bothered at all if he was elected.
Edgar Martinez 4 The best DH of all time. He should get in some day.
Larry Walker 2 Loved him as a player. Coors Field hurts his case.
Bobby Grich 5 The best player not on the standard ballot who is not in the HOF.
Dwight Evans 3 His career was too short, but he did have an excellent peak.
Vladimir Guerrero 5 No brainer. He should be a first ballot HOFer.
Jim Edmonds 2 Career too short.
Mike Mussina 5 Much better than Blyleven who is in. One of the best pitchers of his generation. Well within the top 150 all time.
Kevin Brown 5 Amazing pitcher, PEDs or not.
Louis Tiant 4 Should have been elected a long time ago,
Tommy John 1 Jamie Moyer with pioneering surgery. No way.
Brett Saberhagen 2 Too inconsistent.

[NJRob65]

Omar Vizquel-2
Scott Rolen-4
Andruw Jones-3
Albert Belle-4
Jeff Bagwell-5
Jim Thome-5
Craig Biggio-5
Tim Raines-5
Jim Kaat-3
Edgar Martinez-4
Larry Walker-4
Bobby Grich-5
Dwight Evans-4
Vladimir Guerrero-4
Jim Edmonds-4
Mike Mussina-5
Kevin Brown-4
Luis Tiant-3
Tommy John-3
Brett Saberhagen-3

[willshad]

I dont get the love for Tiant. A 114 ERA+ really is not HOF territory for a pitcher, unless he has a TON of IP, or a super duper peak. Tiant had about 3500 IP, no CY awards (though deserved it in 1968), and no real string of great seasons. He looks about in the same range as Billy Pierce. In looking at his career, he started good, and also had a HOF decline period..but sandwiched between his superb 1968 and 1972 seasons were 3 seasons that ruined his HOF chances and should have been prime years. What happened to him during this time period? Injuries?

By comparison, Tommy John had a 111 ERA+, in over 1200 more innings pitched.