HOF quality times 2 project

[jalbright]

I know the basketball HOF, if not other sport HOFs, allows for induction both as a player and then subsequently as a "contributor". I'm wondering which players we regard as meeting that high standard. I feel I have to ignore those whose contributor case comes solely from the media, be it TV, radio, or press, as Cooperstown itself does not induct guys who served solely in those roles. We're also going to ignore those outside of the National Association, American Association, MLB (AL & NL), and blackball (which will allow consideration of those barred by the color line who worked in Mexico or the Carribean). The first step is this week, where we amass our list of candidates. The next step will be to see which candidates can get at least 60% of the vote as worthy of the HOF as players. The players who can pass that standard will then face a vote to see if their nonplaying accomplishments are regarded as worthy of the Hall. Those who get 75% in both elections are regarded as "in", those who manage at least 60% in both but fail to make 75% in both are regarded as those who arguably deserve that honor, and the rest are "out".

I'll submit my preliminary list, but will consider suggestions of other names meeting the above criteria.:

Anson, Cap
Boudreau, Lou
Chance, Frank
Clarke, Fred
Cochrane, Mickey
Commiskey, Charlie
Cooper, Andy
Creighton, Jim
Dihigo, Martin
Foster, Rube
Frisch, Frankie
Gordon, Joe
Griffith, Clark
Hodges, Gil
Huggins, Miller
Jennings, Hughie
Lemon, Bob
McGraw, John
Mendez, Jose
O'Doul, Lefty
O'Neill, Buck
Pearce, Dickey
Robinson, Frank
Spalding, Al
Torre, Joe
Ward, John Montgomery
White, Sol

We may have to split the players into two separate threads. I envision starting the player election next Saturday, the 29th, and letting that poll up for two weeks, and then running the contributor election for two weeks. It will be done by polls that precede the voting threads.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

The only other guy I can add is Dusty Baker

[GiambiJuice]

Felipe Alou and Frank Robinson (first black manager) come to mind.

[westsidegrounds]

I nominate Monte Ward.

[Freakshow]

How can you forget Gil Hodges? How about Minnie Minoso? By the way, a lot of the first round threads in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates mention guys to include here. Some of my favs are Bill White, Eddie Rommel and Johnny Sain.

[jalbright]

Gil Hodges is an oversight on my part, and at least Frank Robinson clearly makes it on the player side, and one can make the argument that being the first merits at least a place on the ballot as a contributor. But while the following guys were good, does even the person suggesting them want to make the HOF as a player argument for Bill White, Eddie Rommel, Johnny Sain, Felipe Alou and Dusty Baker? I'm talking about guys who will at least challenge getting a majority of votes as a player, and I don't think any of them qualify by that standard. The first test is as a player, without any consideration of the nonplaying career, and if they can't come close to a majority of the vote, they're not really close to making this list.

With what I've just said, I've realized I've got to get rid of Al Lopez and Bob Ferguson, or we're going to have a ton of guys who may deserve a look over all, but no way make it solely as players. Even Hodges has real weaknesses solely on his managing, much less Frank Robinson relying solely on his managing despite the first African American manager accolade.

Minoso certainly makes the cut as a player, but what's his claim for making it as a contributor? My impression is, take away his playing attributes, and he can only offer what hundreds of other guys can match. I might be missing something, but to include him, I need more. I have Monte Ward, whose given name was John Montgomery Ward.

[westsidegrounds]

my preliminary list

By the way, a tip o' the WSG hat for including Jim Creighton.

[GiambiJuice]

You're right, Alou wouldn't get enough votes but an argument can be made that he had a better playing career than several players in the Hall.

[Los Bravos]

Nobody to add, really, I just wanted to write that I think this is a fabulous idea. The dual membership is one of my favorite aspects of the Springfield HOF.

[JR Hart]

Babe Ruth, although he did nothing "officially "extra, is the #1 contributor in baseball history. He lifted the game out of the black sox scandal. He totally transcended the game. When Americans in WWII shouted "kill the Emporer" the Japanese responded with "Kill Babe Ruth." During the Battle of the Bulge, when Germans were wearing American uniforms, one of the ways that they were identified, is that they couldn't answer questions about Ruth's home run records.

Ruth should be named as the first contributor.

[jalbright]

That's not the way the project is designed--and if I bought that argument for Ruth, it opens the door for similar arguments for other players. I don't want to go there. There's no problem with the logic if we got past the issue I mention, though.

If basketball inducts Michael Jordan as a "contributor" based on an argument similar to the one you raise, I'll reconsider.

[JR Hart]

John McGraw is a very interesting case. He didn't play that long and wasn't really durable, but he had some great seasons and was the leader of some legendary Baltimore teams. He was feared along the lines of a Ty Cobb. I think that his playing career is overlooked.

[jalbright]

The playing career of McGraw or Rube Foster are two of the reasons for this project. It will also be interesting to see what our voters do for the player managers like Frank Chance, Lou Boudreau, or Cap Anson. Those guys were making their playing and nonplaying contributions at the same time. Maybe that's enough to keep them from getting dual recognition, maybe not, but it will be interesting to watch.

[Bothrops Atrox]

I am considering nominating Red Schoendienst, with the understanding that he was probably a step and a half out of the HOF as both a player and as a manager.

[jjpm74]

Looking at the list, these are the people I would elected to both sides of Cooperstown:

Chance, Frank
Griffith, Clark
McGraw, John
O'Doul, Lefty
Spalding, Al
Torre, Joe
Ward, John Montgomery

These people I only consider HOFers because of a combination of their play and their contributions:

Cooper, Andy
Hodges, Gil
Jennings, Hughie
O'Neill, Buck

These people are in as players and fall short as contributors:

Anson, Cap
Boudreau, Lou
Clarke, Fred
Cochrane, Mickey
Dihigo, Martin
Frisch, Frankie
Gordon, Joe
Mendez, Jose

The rest are in as contributors and their playing careers fall short.