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  • The BBF HoF All-Timeline

    It's the year 1901, and the National League Rules Committee is in the midst of revamping the game. Meanwhile, eight franchises have just collectively declared Major League status, calling themselves the "American League" under former Western League president Ban Johnson. In an act of good faith between the two rival leagues, National League president Nicholas Young has initiated a shrine to the greats of the sport, calling it a "Hall of Fame". He turns to a select panel of baseball historians to select them.
    Hello all, and welcome to this particular corner of the Baseball Fever Hall of Fame. Here are the rules as posted on the website, which I will update here as the language is inevitably tweaked:

    - Ballots will be done "annually" as per the BBWAA, starting with the "1901" ballot.

    - Each "year" will encompass approximately one week of real time.

    - The following leagues will be considered "major leagues" for our purposes:
    National Association (1871-1875)
    National League (1876-present)
    American Association (1882-1891)
    Union Association (1884)
    Players League (1890)
    American League (1900-present)
    Federal League (1914-1915)

    - Voters are allowed a ballot of 0 (zero) to 10 (ten) eligible players.

    - Voters will be allowed one ballot per IP address. If multiple ballots are caught originating from the same IP address, only the first will be counted. Family members or associates using the same computer should PM the manager (as of now, me) for special clearances.

    - Eligible players include any major leaguer whose last season ended before the current "year", dating back 25 (twenty five) years.
    (Ex: by "1945", the eligibility window will be "1920-1944". Those who retired before 1920 will no longer be eligible.)

    - Players whose last season ended before 1901 will all be eligible until the year "1925" to ensure 25 opportunities for everyone.

    - There is no 5% rule, nor 10-year rule for eligibility.

    - Players are to be evaluated based solely on their contribution on the field. (Ex: John McGraw doesn't get credit for managing.)

    - For special circumstances where players are banned from the sport, we will follow history year-by-year.
    (Ex: Pete Rose will be eligible between the time he retired, and the time he was banned from baseball.)

    - Special exemptions to eligibility must be agreed upon by the constituency, and announced before voting commences.

    - An eligible player must clear 75% of the vote any given year to be enshrined.

    - There is no VC.

    - Ballots are to be sent privately to the management. Results will not be announced until a) all ballots are in, or b) the deadline passes for a given "year"
    "1901" WILL END SUNDAY, APRIL 10th, 2005 @ 12:00 PM. Subsequent years will begin sometime Sunday afternoon/night and end at 12 pm the following Sunday. Ballots may be stretched for more time to accomodate voters.

    Anything that wants to be discussed--any stumping, any questions, any other signees--here's the place. I'm closing the signup thread for this one.

    :gt

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    INDUCTEES

    P Pete Alexander - 1st, 100%
    1B Dan Brouthers - 1st, 100%
    P Mordecai Brown - 1st, 100%
    OF Ty Cobb - 1st, 100%
    2B Eddie Collins - 1st, 100%
    OF Ed Delahanty - 1st, 100%
    P Walter Johnson - 1st, 100%
    2B Nap Lajoie - 1st, 100%
    P Christy Mathewson - 1st, 100%
    P Kid Nichols - 1st, 100%
    OF Tris Speaker - 1st, 100%
    SS Honus Wagner - 1st, 100%
    P Cy Young - 1st, 100%


    1B Cap Anson - 1st, 95.65%
    OF Sam Crawford - 1st, 95.24%
    P Ed Walsh - 1st, 95.24%
    3B Frank Baker - 1st, 90.48%
    OF Jesse Burkett - 1st, 90.48%
    P Eddie Plank - 1st, 90.48%
    OF Billy Hamilton - 1st, 89.47%
    P Amos Rusie - 1st, 89.47%
    OF Zack Wheat - 1st, 89.47%
    P John Clarkson - 1st, 86.96%
    C/UT Buck Ewing - 1st, 86.96%
    P Stan Coveleski - 1st, 85.00%
    OF Max Carey - 1st, 84.21%
    P Joe McGinnity - 1st, 84.21%
    1B George Sisler - 1st, 83.33%
    OF Edd Roush - 1st, 76.47%
    OF Fred Clarke - 1st, 75.00%

    OF/UT Jim O' Rourke - 2nd, 85.71%
    P Tim Keefe - 2nd, 84.21%
    SS Bill Dahlen - 2nd, 83.33%
    OF Sherry Magee - 2nd, 78.95%
    SS George Davis - 2nd, 75.00%

    1B Roger Connor - 3rd, 90.91%
    OF Willie Keeler - 3rd, 88.89%
    P Charles Radbourn - 3rd, 86.36%
    P Rube Waddell - 3rd, 83.33%
    P Carl Mays - 3rd, 76.47%

    P Pud Galvin - 4th, 90.91%
    C/OF King Kelly - 4th, 90.91%
    P Al Spalding - 4th, 77.27%
    3B/C Deacon White - 4th, 77.27%
    OF Sam Thompson - 4th, 76.19%

    OF Hugh Duffy - 5th, 85.00%
    OF Elmer Flick - 5th, 85.00%
    P/UT John Ward - 5th, 76.19%
    P Addie Joss - 5th, 75.00%

    3B Jimmy Collins - 6th, 84.21%
    SS Hughie Jennings - 6th, 75.00%

    OF Joe Kelley - 7th, 85.00%
    OF/1B Harry Stovey - 7th, 84.21%

    2B/SS Ross Barnes - 8th, 76.19%
    SS George Wright - 8th, 76.19%

    OF George Van Haltren - 9th, 77.78%
    P Clark Griffith - 9th, 76.19%

    2B Bid McPhee - 10th, 76.19%

    OF Gavvy Cravath - 11th, 77.78%
    2B Larry Doyle - 11th, 76.47%
    SS Bobby Wallace - 11th, 75.00%

    C Roger Bresnahan - 13th, 78.95%
    1B Frank Chance - 13th, 78.95%

    OF Paul Hines - 14th, 78.95%

    1B Jake Beckley - 15th, 75.00%
    OF George Gore - 15th, 75.00%
    P Mickey Welch - 15th, 75.00%

    P Bob Caruthers - 20th, 75.00%

    SS Jack Glasscock - 21st, 84.21%

    OF Pete Browning - 22nd, 85.00%

    P Tony Mullane - 23rd, 76.19%
    SS Hardy Richardson - 23rd, 76.19%

    OF Jimmy Ryan - 24th, 89.47%
    C Charlie Bennett - 24th, 75.00%

    3B John McGraw - 25th, 77.78%
    Last edited by J W; 08-09-2006, 12:30 PM.
    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

  • #2
    --Ballot submitted privately. Interested in hearing about some players who I considered but didn't put on my ballot; Levi Myerle, Mike Tiernan and Dave Orr I think were the best eligible hitters who didn't make it. Myerle was the best hitter of the formative years that I passed on, but his sample size is small and its questionable to even call his leagues MLB. Thoughts, pro or con, on his candidacy?
    --Most of what I know about the early days is just stats, which mostly means hitters. Anybody who has studied the earlier days want to campaign for some all around type players who maybe weren't great pure hitters?

    Comment


    • #3
      ERRATA

      Here are the names and dates of those banned:

      George Bechtel, 1876-present
      Bill Craver, December 5, 1877-present
      Jim Devlin, December 5, 1877-present
      George Hall, December 5, 1877-present
      Al Nichols, December 5, 1877-present
      Oscar Walker, December 5, 1877-present

      Richard Higham, 1882-present (umpire)
      Joseph Creamer, 1908-present (team doctor)
      Horace Fogel, 1912-present (owner)

      Hal Chase, 1919-present
      Heinie Zimmermann, 1919-present
      Lee Magee, 1920-present
      Bill Burns, 1921-present
      Eddie Cicotte, 1921-present
      Happy Felsch, 1921-present
      Ray Fisher, 1921-1980 (reinstated as "retired player in good standing")
      Chick Gandil, 1921-present
      Joe Gedeon, November 3, 1921-present
      Heinie Groh, April 1921-June 1921
      Joe Jackson, 1921-present
      Benny Kauff, 1921-present
      Fred McMullin, 1921-present
      Eugene Paulette, 1921-present
      Swede Risberg, 1921-present
      Buck Weaver, 1921-present
      Lefty Williams, 1921-present
      Phil Douglas, August 16, 1922-present
      Jean Dubuc, 1922-present

      Dickie Kerr, 1923-August 1925 (reinstated)
      Cozy Dolan, October 1, 1924-present
      Jimmie O'Connell, October 1, 1924-present


      William Cox, November 22, 1943-present (owner)

      Willie Mays, 1979-March 18, 1985 (reinstated)
      Ferguson Jenkins, September 8, 1980-September 22, 1980 (overturned)
      Mickey Mantle, 1983-March 18, 1985 (reinstated)
      Pete Rose, August 24, 1989-present
      George Steinbrenner, July 30, 1990-July 24, 1992 (reinstated)
      Steve Howe, July 24, 1992-November 1992 (overturned by arbitrator)
      oooooooooooooooooooooo
      Last edited by J W; 07-17-2006, 08:08 PM.
      http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

      Comment


      • #4
        SELECT ELIGIBLES

        Here's a list of most of the names you may consider for the All-Timeline. Note that these are not ALL the eligible players; just those who meet the minimum AB or GP requirements and fall in the eligible time window.

        They are listed by the last year they played--therefore the last year listed should be one year prior to election eligibility. Enshrined players are included and listed in red.

        1876-1877

        1878
        P Al Spalding

        1879-1880

        1881
        2B/SS Ross Barnes

        1882
        SS George Wright

        1883-1889

        1890
        C/3B Deacon White

        1891
        OF Paul Hines
        P Charley Radbourn

        1892
        P Pud Galvin
        OF George Gore
        UT Hardy Richardson
        P Mickey Welch

        1893
        C Charlie Bennett
        P/OF Bob Caruthers
        P Tim Keefe
        C/OF King Kelly

        1894
        OF Pete Browning
        P John Clarkson
        P Tony Mullane
        P/UT John Ward

        1895
        SS Jack Glasscock

        1896

        1897
        1B Cap Anson
        1B Roger Connor
        C/UT Buck Ewing

        1898

        1899
        2B Bid McPhee

        1900

        1901
        OF Billy Hamilton
        P Amos Rusie

        1902

        1903
        OF Ed Delahanty
        OF Jimmy Ryan
        OF George Van Haltren

        1904
        1B Dan Brouthers
        OF/UT Jim O' Rourke

        1905
        OF Jesse Burkett

        1906
        OF Hugh Duffy
        3B John McGraw
        P Kid Nichols
        OF Sam Thompson

        1907
        1B Jake Beckley

        1908
        OF/1B John Anderson
        OF Jimmy Barrett
        OF/1B Shad Barry
        OF Harry Bay
        3B/SS Dave Brain
        3B Jimmy Collins
        3B Bill Coughlin
        1B John Ganzel
        OF Emmet Heidrick
        UT Charlie Hickman
        OF Joe Kelley
        OF Billy Maloney
        C Ed McFarland
        1B Dan McGann
        P Joe McGinnity
        P Case Patten
        OF Ollie Pickering
        C Ossee Schreckengost
        OF Socks Seybold
        OF Spike Shannon
        OF Jimmy Slagle
        UT Sammy Strang
        P Dummy Taylor
        C John Warner

        1909
        C Frank Bowerman
        P Jack Chesbro
        SS/3B George Davis
        P Bill Dineen
        1B Jiggs Donahue
        2B Hobe Ferris
        P Chick Fraser
        OF Bob Ganley
        2B Billy Gilbert
        1B/2B Frank Isbell
        3B Arlie Latham
        P Al Orth
        C Doc Powers
        2B Claude Ritchey
        2B Jimmy Williams

        1910
        2B/SS Ed Abbaticchio
        OF Ginger Beaumont
        C Harry Bemis
        OF Elmer Flick
        OF Ed Hahn
        P Harry Howell
        SS Rudy Hulswitt
        1B Tom Jones
        P Addie Joss
        OF Willie Keeler
        P Sam Leever
        OF Harry Lumley
        OF/2B Harry Niles
        C/UT Jack O' Connor
        P Tully Sparks
        OF George Stone
        1B Bob Unglaub
        P Rube Waddell
        P Vic Willis

        1911
        C Bill Bergen
        1B Kitty Bransfield
        OF Al Burch
        UT Wid Conroy
        SS Bill Dahlen
        OF Patsy Dougherty
        OF Doc Gessler
        OF Topsy Hartsel
        OF Charlie Hemphill
        OF Danny Hoffman
        SS Freddy Parent
        P Deacon Phillippe
        3B Harry Steinfeldt
        P Jesse Tannehill
        1B Fred Tenney
        OF Roy Thomas
        P Cy Young

        1912
        OF George Browne
        C Lou Criger
        P Bob Ewing
        2B/P Kid Gleason
        C Deacon McGuire
        OF Marty McIntyre
        P Barney Pelty
        P Jack Powell
        C Joe Sugden
        3B/SS Lee Tannehill
        3B Harry Wolverton

        1913
        OF/3B Nixey Callahan
        3B Art Devlin
        P Tom Hughes
        C Johnny Kling
        UT John Knight
        OF Bris Lord
        P Orval Overall
        C Heinie Peitz
        C Jack Ryan
        OF Cy Seymour
        OF Jimmy Sheckard
        1B Jake Stahl
        OF John Titus
        P Doc White

        1914
        OF Johnny Bates
        OF Joe Birmingham
        1B Frank Chance
        OF Mike Donlin
        SS/3B Kid Elberfeld
        P Clark Griffith
        OF Mike Mitchell
        P Earl Moore
        C Pat Moran
        2B/3B Bill Sweeney

        1915
        1B/OF Fred Beck
        OF Beals Becker
        3B Bill Bradley
        C Roger Bresnahan
        SS Al Bridwell
        P Howie Camitz
        OF Vin Campbell
        OF Fred Clarke
        OF Birdie Cree
        UT Jim Delahanty
        UT Tom Downey
        OF Steve Evans
        3B Eddie Grant
        OF Davy Jones
        OF Fielder Jones
        2B/3B Frank LaPorte
        3B Harry Lord
        C Larry McLean
        OF Herbie Moran
        P George Mullin
        2B/OF Danny Murphy
        OF Rebel Oakes
        P Frank Smith
        1B George Stovall
        P Ed Willett
        P Hooks Wiltse

        1916
        P Mordecai Brown
        C Red Dooin
        2B Dick Egan
        UT Clyde Engle
        UT Roy Hartzell
        OF Solly Hofman
        2B Miller Huggins
        2B Otto Knabe
        2B Nap Lajoie
        P Christy Mathewson
        OF Danny Moeller
        3B George Moriarty
        P Nap Rucker
        OF Fred Snodgrass
        C Billy Sullivan
        SS Joe Tinker
        OF Chief Wilson
        2B/SS Steve Yerkes

        1917
        3B Bobby Byrne
        OF Sam Crawford
        1B Harry Davis
        P Cy Falkenberg
        3B Hans Lobert
        C Chief Meyers
        OF Ward Miller
        3B Mike Mowrey
        OF Red Murray
        P Eddie Plank
        P Ed Reulbach
        P Jim Scott
        SS Honus Wagner
        P Ed Walsh


        1918
        C Jimmy Archer
        OF Bob Bescher
        P Bill Donovan
        SS Mickey Doolan
        C George Gibson
        OF Wilbur Good
        P Bob Groom
        P Bob Harmon
        1B Dick Hoblitzel
        UT John Hummel
        SS/1B Hughie Jennings
        3B/OF Tommy Leach
        3B/2B Fritz Maisel
        OF Armando Marsans
        2B Ray Morgan
        2B/3B Burt Niehoff
        OF Rube Oldring
        UT Germany Schaefer
        OF Frank Schulte
        P Jeff Tesreau
        SS Heinie Wagner
        SS Bobby Wallace
        UT Rollie Zieder

        1919
        P Red Ames
        SS/2B Jack Barry
        P Larry Cheney
        OF Sherry Magee
        1B Vic Saier
        2B Dave Shean
        3B Red Smith
        SS/3B Terry Turner

        1920
        3B Doug Baird
        SS Ray Chapman
        P Jack Coombs
        OF Gavvy Cravath
        2B Larry Doyle
        P Claude Hendrix
        UT Buck Herzog
        OF Bill Hinchman
        P Lefty Leifield
        1B Fred Luderus
        SS George McBride
        3B Bill McKechnie
        C Bill Rariden
        2B Morrie Rath

        1921
        OF Ping Bodie
        P Ray Caldwell
        3B Charlie Deal
        C Bill Killefer
        1B Ed Konetchy
        OF Duffy Lewis
        1B/2B Dots Miller
        OF Dode Paskert
        OF Braggo Roth
        P Slim Sallee
        P Lefty Tyler
        3B Ossie Vitt
        P Hippo Vaughn

        1922
        3B Frank Baker
        P Phil Douglas
        SS Art Fletcher
        OF Jack Graney
        UT Hal Janvrin
        1B Doc Johnston
        OF Clyde Milan
        C Otto Miller
        OF Dave Robertson
        SS/2B Zeb Terry
        OF/3B Possum Whitted
        2B Ralph Young

        1923
        P Jim Bagby
        3B Tony Boeckel
        SS Donie Bush
        2B George Cutshaw
        3B Eddie Foster
        SS Larry Kopf
        OF Mike Menosky
        OF Burt Shotton
        OF Tilly Walker

        1924
        C Eddie Ainsmith
        OF Walton Cruise
        1B Jake Daubert
        OF Pat Duncan
        3B Larry Gardner
        P Earl Hamilton
        SS Charlie Hollocher
        SS Doc Lavan
        OF Greasy Neale
        SS Ivy Olson
        P Jeff Pfeffer
        OF Ray Powell
        2B Del Pratt
        OF Amos Strunk

        1925
        P Chief Bender
        P Rube Benton
        OF George Burns
        OF Shano Collins
        OF Max Flack
        OF Tommy Griffith
        1B Walter Holke
        OF Harry Hooper
        OF Nemo Leibold
        P Dutch Leonard
        P Rube Marquard
        OF Hy Myers
        UT Howie Shanks
        OF Elmer Smith
        C Oscar Stanage
        OF Casey Stengel
        OF Bobby Veach

        1926
        P Babe Adams
        OF Carson Bigbee
        P Wilbur Cooper
        P Hooks Dauss
        UT Jimmy Johnston
        1B Fred Merkle
        2B/SS Johnny Rawlings
        SS Everett Scott
        C Hank Severeid
        3B Milt Stock
        2B Bill Wambsganss
        OF/SS Whitey Witt
        OF Ross Youngs

        1927
        P Jesse Barnes
        1B Jack Fournier
        3B Heinie Groh
        OF Baby Doll Jacobsen
        P Walter Johnson
        1B Stuffy McInnis
        OF Irish Meusel
        P George Mogridge
        SS Roger Peckinpaugh
        P Dick Rudolph
        P Dutch Ruether
        P Bob Shawkey
        C Frank Snyder
        OF Jack Tobin
        OF Zack Wheat

        1928
        P Joe Bush
        OF Ty Cobb
        P Stan Coveleski
        SS Chick Galloway
        1B/OF Joe Harris
        OF Les Mann
        C Steve O' Neill
        1B Wally Pipp
        P Jimmy Ring
        SS Heinie Sand
        P Urban Shocker
        OF Tris Speaker

        1929
        3B Jimmy Austin
        1B George H. Burns
        OF Max Carey
        P Bill Doak
        2B Johnny Evers
        SS Wally Gerber
        OF George Harper
        P Carl Mays
        OF Johnny Mostil
        P Art Nehf
        C Ray Schalk
        OF Jack Smith
        OF Billy Southworth
        OF Ken Williams
        C Ivey Wingo

        1930
        P Pete Alexander
        SS Dave Bancroft
        2B Eddie Collins
        P Howard Ehmke
        OF Ira Flagstead
        OF Bob Meusel
        1B George Sisler
        OF Homer Summa
        OF Curt Walker
        OF Cy Williams

        1931
        3B Les Bell
        P Rip Collins
        3B Joe Dugan
        OF Bibb Falk
        2B Bucky Harris
        UT Frank O' Rourke
        OF Edd Roush
        C Wally Schang
        1B Earl Sheely
        1B Phil Todt

        1932
        OF Rube Bressler
        P Pete Donohue
        OF Cliff Heathcote
        OF/1B Harry Heilmann
        OF Charlie Jamieson
        1B George Kelly
        OF Freddy Leach
        P Jake May
        P Clarence Mitchell
        P Eddie Rommel
        P Bill Sherdel

        * enshrinees in red *
        Last edited by J W; 07-17-2006, 08:10 PM.
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        Comment


        • #5
          JW - Does your list of players encompass ALL of the players meeting your eligibility requirements for enshrinement for each year, or are there others to consider as well? If there are others, could you explain again for those of us not paying attention the first time :o how to get the yearly list from baseball-reference.com? Thanks!

          BTW, shouldn't the second league listed under the guidelines be the National LEAGUE?
          Last edited by catcher24; 04-03-2005, 01:09 PM.
          You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

          Comment


          • #6
            There are others. You could theoretically vote for a player with one career AB--however, though I won't disclose who votes for whom, I will list everyone who receives a vote.

            My lists are going to include 99% of all viable candidates I'm sure, as well as a bunch of others. I'm just going to post them for reference.

            Also, I've made the "National League" change as noted.
            Last edited by J W; 04-04-2005, 11:00 AM.
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            Comment


            • #7
              JW - I will just use your lists then. I won't be voting for or supporting someone that is unheard of, or that no one would consider a realistic candidate.
              You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

              Comment


              • #8
                I would like to see a sample ballot if possible to make sure I understand the process.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dudeman
                  I would like to see a sample ballot if possible to make sure I understand the process.
                  It's just like the Hall of Fame voting. From among those eligible, list up to ten names you think are hall of famers. If nobody is worthy, cast a blank ballot.

                  My 1901 ballot, alphabetically, is:

                  Anson C.-1B
                  Clarkson J.-P
                  Connor R.-1B
                  Ewing B.-C
                  Glasscock J.-SS
                  Hines P.-CF
                  Kelly K.-RF/C
                  Spalding A.-P
                  White D.-C/3B
                  Wright G.-SS

                  Also receiving serious consideration were:

                  barnes
                  gore
                  keefe
                  start
                  sutton
                  ward
                  richardson
                  radbourn

                  This being the first ballot, I think there is quite a backlog of worthy players and will have no probelm filling all ten spots for many years.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    --I think anybody who can't come up with a full ballot for the first few rounds probably should have skipped thsi project. The best thing about it for me is that it forces me to consider guys who I am years away from considering for for my BBFHoF ballot. Ross Barnes and King Kelly are nowhere near consideration for that ballot, but made my first ballot here.
                    --Relieved of timeline considerations and competing only with their peers it is more clear who stands out. I'm probably going to have to restrain myself from voting from too many of these guys. I'm thinking of a ceiling (for myself only, not as a rule for the project or anything) of one player per year of 19th century MLB.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Fun project.Thank You for deciding to put the time in to make it happen JW.

                      My Ballot has been sent.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by leecemark

                        --Most of what I know about the early days is just stats, which mostly means hitters. Anybody who has studied the earlier days want to campaign for some all around type players who maybe weren't great pure hitters?
                        I'll do some short write-ups about various positions.

                        Today: SS
                        Tuesday: C, 3B
                        Wednesday: 2B, CF
                        Thursday: LF, RF
                        Friday: 1B, Some Multi-position
                        Saturday: P

                        NOTES ABOUT SHORTSTOPS
                        *George Wright is considered the premier shortstop of the NA era, and the leading defensive shortstop of the 1870s. Davy Force had good numbers in the NA, but his hitting dropped off substantially once the NL started.

                        *The following are Bill James' National League GG winners at shortstop from 1880 to 1895.
                        Arthur Irwin 1880, 1889
                        Jack Glasscock 1881, 1882, 1883, 1889
                        Davy Force 1884
                        Monte Ward 1885, 1886, 1887
                        Bob Allen 1890
                        Herman Long 1891
                        Germany Smith 1892, 1893
                        Hughie Jennings 1894
                        Bill Dahlen 1895.
                        However, James named Germany Smith his GG shortstop of the 1880s; Smith played in the AA during that decade. Smith was a terrible hitter, though. McKean was a good hitter, but was extremely poor defensively.

                        *The following page has a discussion on early shortstops.
                        http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...on/shortstops/

                        *Finally, there's one very interesting candidate who isn't on the eligibles list.

                        DICKEY PEARCE
                        Brooklyn Atlantics, 1856-70 and 1873-74; New York (NA) 1871-72, St. Louis (NA/NL) 1876-77

                        (a) When Pearce started in the game, SS was considered the least valuable position defensively. Pearce transformed it into a key defensive position, inventing most of the strategies used at that position today.

                        (b) Pearce was also an above-average hitter, and is credited by historian David Seymour with inventing the bunt.

                        (c) Depending on the source, Pearce was either the first or second professional in baseball history (Creighton was the other).

                        (d) He was arguably the best player in baseball during the 1860; Harry Wright and Joe Start would be his main competitors. He was the key player for the undefeated Atlantics teams in 1864 and 1865. According to the St. Louis Times on June 30, 1868, "Pearce has been noted as a superior shortstop for ten years and to-day has no equal in the base ball field. He bats with great judgment and safety." (see http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseb...rce_Dickey.stm for details).

                        (e) He was elected to baseballthinkfactory's Hall of Merit, although in the 1931 election.

                        However, given the state of baseball in the 1860s, it's pretty hard to say how good Pearce really was.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          AG2004: Thanks for the info on the early SS. I don't think I will be considering Pearce, and perhaps no one should, since this project begins with the NA in 1871, and Pearce's best years were behind him. Sounds like he might be worth considering as a contributor in the BBFHOF, though, and you might want to post the same info over there.

                          One player I would like everyone to look at and consider is Harry Stovey. He played in the NL, AA, and PL from 1880 to 1893. During that time frame he was one of the best sluggers in the game. He compiled a .289 career average, but had a .361 OBP and .461 SP. He collected 347 doubles, 174 triples and 122 homeruns. 36% of his career hits were for extra bases. His CAREER OPS+ was an excellent 143 (61st all time). He led the league in HR four times, and was the all-time HR leader when he retired.
                          Top 10 slugging - 8 times (led 3).
                          Top 10 runs - ten times (led 4).
                          Top 10 total bases - 8 times (led 3).
                          Top 10 doubles - 9 times (led once)
                          Top 10 triples - 7 times (led 4 times).
                          Top 10 homeruns - 11 times (led 5 times).
                          Top 10 EBH - 10 times (led 5 times).
                          Please give him some consideration for a spot on your pre-1900 ballot.
                          You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

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                          • #14
                            Moving to my next position ...

                            NOTES ABOUT CATCHERS

                            *During the 1870s, Pop Snyder was considered the top defensive catcher, but wasn't that great on offense. Looking at the decade as a whole, Deacon White was considered the top catcher; he went on to play 3B during the 1880s.

                            *In the 1880s, Buck Ewing and Charlie Bennett were the top defensive catchers. James gives Chief Zimmer, not yet eligible here, his 1890s Gold Glove at catcher.

                            *Jack Clements was about average defensively. He's best known for being the only left-handed-throwing catcher to have a long major league career.

                            *I have to refer to Cal McVey somewhere in these comments. He played only 9 seasons in the NA and NL; 4 of those were at catcher. During the NA years, many considered him superior to Deacon White. He played more at 1B in the late 1870s, and leads all 1B in total win shares from 1876-79. Cal McVey also played for the 1869 and 1870 Cincinnati Red Stockings.
                            However, evaluating his career in the 1880s is a problem. He apparently hated the East, and really hated the reserve clauses, so he played in what we now consider minor leagues during that decade. I don't know how he did, or what leagues he played in.
                            The distance between the bottom of the National League and the best minor league teams wasn't that far when McVey left the NL. In 1878, for example, the Buffalo IA team went 10-7 in matchups against NL teams. Buffalo joined the NL for the 1879 season, and finished third out of eight teams, with a 46-30 record.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by catcher24
                              AG2004: Thanks for the info on the early SS. I don't think I will be considering Pearce, and perhaps no one should, since this project begins with the NA in 1871, and Pearce's best years were behind him. Sounds like he might be worth considering as a contributor in the BBFHOF, though, and you might want to post the same info over there.
                              You're welcome.

                              In general, I'll be posting short write-ups on some people who had good years were in the NA or before, partly because James' win shares data only starts with 1876. I probably should have pointed out that George Wright had a couple of good years in the late 1860s, pre-NA era; his career with top teams started in 1866, as far as I can tell.

                              According to the rules, Pearce can be considered, since he did play in the NL. It's unclear, however, if pre-NA performance may be considered. Would JW offer a clarification on this point?

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