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  • Here's 20 more, you know the drill

    Well these threads have a good response. Here’s another 20 players. Please post comments if you wish. That’s what I enjoy reading.

    Please assign a number. The rating scale remains the same.

    5-Why is he not in? (if he was eligible)
    4- Has a good case
    3- marginal, has some merit
    2-comes up short
    1-are you kidding me?



    Ken Boyer
    Mickey Lolich
    John Franco
    Marty Marion
    Mike Donlin
    Joe Torre (player)
    Jose Cruz Sr
    Jimmy Ryan
    Gary Sheffileld
    Kenny Lofton
    Bobby Abreu
    Tommy Leach
    Jeff Kent
    John McGraw (player)
    Milt Pappas
    Harold Baines
    Dave Parker
    Bill Dahlen
    John Smoltz
    Curt Schilling
    This week's Giant

    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

  • #2
    Ken Boyer - 3
    Mickey Lolich - 2
    John Franco - 1
    Marty Marion - 1
    Mike Donlin - 1
    Joe Torre (player) - 4
    Jose Cruz Sr - 3
    Jimmy Ryan - 2
    Gary Sheffileld - 3
    Kenny Lofton - 3
    Bobby Abreu - 2
    Tommy Leach - 3
    Jeff Kent - 5
    John McGraw (player) - 2
    Milt Pappas - 1
    Harold Baines - 3
    Dave Parker - 3
    Bill Dahlen - 4
    John Smoltz - 4
    Curt Schilling - 4

    Comment


    • #3
      Ken Boyer 3
      Mickey Lolich 3
      John Franco 1
      Marty Marion 1
      Mike Donlin 2
      Joe Torre (player) 3
      Jose Cruz Sr 2
      Jimmy Ryan 4
      Gary Sheffield 2
      Kenny Lofton 2
      Bobby Abreu 1
      Tommy Leach 4
      Jeff Kent 3
      John McGraw (player) 3
      Milt Pappas 2
      Harold Baines 1
      Dave Parker 2
      Bill Dahlen 5
      John Smoltz 5
      Curt Schilling 5

      Comment


      • #4
        Ken Boyer 3
        Mickey Lolich 3
        John Franco 2
        Marty Marion 2
        Mike Donlin 2
        Joe Torre (player) 2
        Jose Cruz Sr 2
        Jimmy Ryan 2
        Gary Sheffileld 4
        Kenny Lofton 3
        Bobby Abreu 2
        Tommy Leach 3
        Jeff Kent 4
        John McGraw (player) 3
        Milt Pappas 2
        Harold Baines 2
        Dave Parker 3
        Bill Dahlen 3
        John Smoltz 4
        Curt Schilling 4

        I would give Sheffield a 5 if he had been retired 5 years. No one else was really a 5, but no one on the list was really a 1, either.
        Last edited by Fuzzy Bear; 09-29-2012, 12:51 PM.
        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

        Comment


        • #5
          Ken Boyer - 4
          Mickey Lolich - 2
          John Franco - 2
          Marty Marion - 1
          Mike Donlin - 1
          Joe Torre (player) - 3
          Jose Cruz Sr - 3
          Jimmy Ryan - 3
          Gary Sheffileld - 4
          Kenny Lofton - 3
          Bobby Abreu - 3
          Tommy Leach - 2
          Jeff Kent - 3
          John McGraw (player) - 3
          Milt Pappas - 1
          Harold Baines - 2
          Dave Parker - 2
          Bill Dahlen - 5
          John Smoltz - 5
          Curt Schilling - 5
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

          Comment


          • #6
            Ken Boyer 3
            Mickey Lolich 2
            John Franco 4
            Marty Marion 1
            Mike Donlin 1
            Joe Torre (player) 3
            Jose Cruz Sr 2
            Jimmy Ryan 1
            Gary Sheffileld 1
            Kenny Lofton 5
            Bobby Abreu 3
            Tommy Leach 2
            Jeff Kent 5
            John McGraw (player) 3
            Milt Pappas 1
            Harold Baines 3
            Dave Parker 4
            Bill Dahlen 3
            John Smoltz 5
            Curt Schilling 5

            Note: numbers-wise, I gave Sheffield a 5. But I docked him heavily for PED use. For 10 years, Kenny Lofton was a top 30 type of player. He played the best defense I've ever seen while swiping nearly 50 bags a year and hitting .300. His decline cost him a several dozen spots in the rankings. But he was great for 10 years. Jeff Kent was Mr. Consistent, especially for a 2nd baseman. He was a poor man's version of Nap Lajoie. Smoltz's year off due to surgery hurt his counting stats. But how many people won 200+ games and had 150+ saves in their careers? I think Smoltz should make it in. Schilling posted similar career numbers to Smoltz, except that he didn't have all of those saves. However, I give Schilling bonus points for his tremendous post-season effort.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pheasant View Post
              Ken Boyer 3
              I think Smoltz should make it in. Schilling posted similar career numbers to Smoltz, except that he didn't have all of those saves. However, I give Schilling bonus points for his tremendous post-season effort.
              Are Schillings post-season numbers really that much better than Smoltz's?
              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

              Comment


              • #8
                Ken Boyer 3+
                Mickey Lolich 3
                John Franco 2
                Marty Marion 2
                Mike Donlin 2
                Joe Torre (player) 4-
                Jose Cruz Sr 3
                Jimmy Ryan 2
                Gary Sheffield 5- based purely on performance
                Kenny Lofton 4-
                Bobby Abreu 3
                Tommy Leach 2
                Jeff Kent 5
                John McGraw (player) 3
                Milt Pappas 2
                Harold Baines 3
                Dave Parker 3
                Bill Dahlen 4
                John Smoltz 5
                Curt Schilling 5

                I've assigned 5s to players whose on-field performance clearly puts them in the top half of the HOF- say, top 80 position players, top 40 pitchers. Smoltz, Schilling, Sheffield pass that test for me, and Kent's close enough. 4s belong to guys wjho I think merit inclusion- Torre, Dahlen, Lofton make it, though I'm less of a Lofton fan than many BBFers.

                3s are the great grey area- Boyer, Lolich, Cruz, Abreu, McGraw, Baines, Parker. I probably wouldn't include any of them, based on current HOF size, though Boyer is very close for me. Parker's close too- he should have been a no-brainer....
                Last edited by BigRon; 10-01-2012, 05:26 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Pardon my ignorance as some of these players were well before my time and am going based on my own thoughts and reasoning.

                  Ken Boyer (4) - Very underrated IMO. He was Ron Santo before Ron Santo came around. He was very productive thru his first 10 seasons and was stringing together GGs unti Ron came began his career.
                  Mickey Lolich (3) - I liked his arm. He could strikout hitters with the best of them. He had some issues with wildness during his prime and I think his stumble in '68 hurt him a bit - especially when people look at what McLain (his own teammate) did that year.
                  John Franco (2) - I'm not one to put closers into the Hall.
                  Marty Marion (1) - No. Numbers got "fat" during the War Years.
                  Mike Donlin (2) - Had some really nice years but only surpassed 100 games played 5 times in his 12-year career.
                  Joe Torre (player) (3) - Super versatility. He'll get in of course as a manager, but I believe he's a bit under-rated as a player.
                  Jose Cruz Sr (2) - Solid, but not really spectacular. Played in a tough park but it was perfect for his type of game. Unfortunately, he didn't get his wheels really going until he was 28 or so.
                  Jimmy Ryan (2) - From 25-29 years old, he had a HOF-type span. But prior to and after that, he was very good but not great.
                  Gary Sheffileld (4) - He'd be a 5 for me but the PED issue will hold him out for a year or two or three. But he was growing way before PEDs were considered. Grew out of SS and grew out of 3B way back in the early 90s.
                  Kenny Lofton (4) - Another 5 for me, but I've seen how tough it's been for Raines to get heavy consideration. He was my absolute favorite player during his run with the Tribe.
                  Bobby Abreu (3) - Massive compiler who needs a couple more seasons IMO to get nearer to 1500 runs/1500 RBI.
                  Tommy Leach (2) - Solid player who I never heard of until I first watched Ken Burns' series in which he supplies a good amount of quotes. He just never put together that really great string of seasons.
                  Jeff Kent (5) - The move to 2B was huge for him I think. He's an automatic.
                  John McGraw (player) (4) - Tenacious player who'd you love on your team and hate him if he was on a rival's. Never accepted defeat and would do whatever it took to succeed. I'd have him as a 5, but he made too many enemies. Like Donlin, he didn't play enough games, but when he did play he was dynamic.
                  Milt Pappas (2) - Will be more remembered for "the trade" than he will for what he did on the field. But even knocking that out, he'd be a Hall of Very Good candidate.
                  Harold Baines (3) - The only way I think he gets in is if somebody like McGriff gets in. While he did things well at the plate, he never hit 30 HRs from a position of power and couldn't eclipse 400 HRs over a very long career.
                  Dave Parker (2) - Was my #1 most-hated player when I was a kid (out of respect of his game, not personally). Had a monster arm and a great short/early peak. But after a handful of years, became rather ordinary.
                  Bill Dahlen (4) - Under-rated player who'll probably never get in because nobody knows who he is. I myself only knew of him in passing before I came to this site. Bobby Grich's name carries more value to the voters IMO as well as Alan Trammel and Lou Whitaker. He'd be in line after those guys get in... if they do.
                  John Smoltz (5) - Great pitcher. Of the three big arms in Atlanta, he was the most successful in the postseason. As mentioned earlier, he transformed into a dominant closer which is difficult to do.
                  Curt Schilling (4) - He probably sewed up his entry with the bloody sock. But he's burnt some bridges in the past and mouthed off a bit too much on his blog site. That's the only reason I can think it might take a few years.
                  "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ken Boyer - 2 ... a lot of people think he should be in, citing a lack of third basemen in the Hall. I don't think that's good enough reason to put him in. He certainly wasn't bad, but his career tailed off big time after 1964.

                    Mickey Lolich - 1 ... a very good pitcher, but not a Hall of Famer.
                    John Franco - 3 ... I'd like to see him in the Hall of Fame, but as a closer he needs to get to the back of the line.
                    Marty Marion - 1 ... perennial All-Star and MVP winners normally get in the Hall, but he just didn't do enough long enough.
                    Mike Donlin - 4 ... I'd love to see him in the Hall of Fame. His stunted career keeps him from getting a 5.
                    Joe Torre (player) - 5 ... one of the better players not in the Hall, in my opinion.
                    Jose Cruz Sr - 1 ... no way. A compiler who didn't compile enough.
                    Jimmy Ryan - 5 ... should be in the Hall right alongside George Van Haltren.
                    Gary Sheffileld - 5 ... steroids or not, he's a Hall of Famer.
                    Kenny Lofton - 4 ... tons of speed, some power, high average, great defense. He should get in.
                    Bobby Abreu - 2 ... not seeing the case. He wouldn't be the worst player in, however.
                    Tommy Leach - 2 ... see Abreu.
                    Jeff Kent - 5 ... one of the best second basemen ever.
                    John McGraw (player) ... 3 ... I'd prefer Donlin over McGraw.
                    Milt Pappas - 1... solid pitcher, not a Hall of Famer.
                    Harold Baines - 2 ... couple knocks: He was a DH and he didn't compile enough.
                    Dave Parker - 3 ... I think he should be in.
                    Bill Dahlen - 5 ... one of the best players not in.
                    John Smoltz - 5 ... hope he's in on the first ballot. Could start and relieve with the best of them.
                    Curt Schilling - 5 ... one of the recent generation's best pitchers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ken Boyer 3 (On the same level as Santo, and I was glad when Santo went in. The early decline hurts.)
                      Mickey Lolich 2 (A very good pitcher in an era with too many great ones.)
                      John Franco 3 (Borderline, but if I make a case for Lee Smith- I do and did- he's not far behind.)
                      Marty Marion 2 (Mazeroski level, but for less time. Two WS champs helps, as does great fielding, but again, not enough else.)
                      Mike Donlin 2 (A great hitter in an era of not many, but career too short and didn't do enough to stand out in the end.)
                      Joe Torre (player) 2 (Add managerial career and he's a no-brainer. Add one more 1971 season and we could talk.)
                      Jose Cruz Sr 2 (Surprisingly good secondary stats, but not the player Jim Wynn was. Hall of Underrated, sure. Not quite enough for the big hall, though.)
                      Jimmy Ryan 2 (Quite a power hitter by 19th Century standards, but not enough peak and not enough else to his game.)
                      Gary Sheffield 3 (PED allegations will hurt. Pretty amazing bat speed. Don't mean to harp on this, but different story if the Dodgers didn't trade Piazza to get him- which apparently they didn't have to.)
                      Kenny Lofton 2 (Great for a short time, good for a long time. Well behind Tim Raines in the lead-off pecking order.)
                      Bobby Abreu 2 (Great OBP guy right when people started paying attention, but not much else to his game when all's said and done.)
                      Tommy Leach 1 (A very average player most of the time. I know it wasn't a hitting era, but he was never close to the best.)
                      Jeff Kent 4 (I disliked him intensely as a Dodger, but can't deny he was pretty great year-in and year-out, and an underrated fielder to boot. Deserving, as much as it pains me to say so.)
                      John McGraw (player) 3 (Fortunately, he's in as a manager. He was a hell of a player, though, and he probably invented the Ashburn/Brett Butler model.)
                      Milt Pappas 2 (As James has said, and shown, pretty similar level to Drysdale. I'm glad Drysdale's in, obviously, but I'm not sure he belongs.)
                      Harold Baines 2 (A very, very good player, and rarely a great one.)
                      Dave Parker 3 (Borderline, though I'd like to see him in.)
                      Bill Dahlen 3 (Great defensive player who played in a defensive era. I'd like to see a bit more from him offensively, but he does have a case on the Mazeroski/Maranville/Schalk plan.)
                      John Smoltz 4 (Almost tempted to change him to a 5, and the SP/RP at top level combo does him well, but that 5-year layoff really hurts the career numbers. Still, if Eckersley's in...)
                      Curt Schilling 3 (Take away the bloody sock and he's marginal. Still, if I put my personal dislike of him aside, he was dominant for a decade, and is the one supposed "big game pitchers" who can consistently back it up statistically.)
                      Last edited by toomanyhatz; 09-30-2012, 11:28 PM. Reason: Added notes, and changed some number ratings.
                      Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                      1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ken Boyer-4
                        Mickey Lolich-2
                        John Franco-3
                        Marty Marion-2
                        Mike Donlin-2
                        Joe Torre(player)-3
                        Jose Cruz-3
                        Jimmy Ryan-2
                        Gary Sheffield-4
                        Kenny Lofton-4
                        Bobby Abreu-4
                        Tommy Leach-3
                        Jeff Kent-3
                        Johm McGraw(player)-2
                        MiltPappas-2
                        Harold Baines-2
                        Dave Parker-3
                        Bill Dahlen-5
                        John Smoltz-4
                        Curt Schilling-5

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                          Ken Boyer - 2 ... a lot of people think he should be in, citing a lack of third basemen in the Hall. I don't think that's good enough reason to put him in. He certainly wasn't bad, but his career tailed off big time after 1964.
                          Boyer, for me, is VERY close to the HOF line. He was an outstanding fielder. I haven't looked at his DWAR numbers, and don't care what they say, good or bad. Boyer was exceptional at 3rd- not quite on a level with Robinson or brother Clete, but very very good. He was a strong hitter, combining good averages with good power. He ran the bases well. His run as an outstanding player was a little bit short, and for me that's the only thing which keeps him from definitely going over my personal HOF line. One or two more solid years after 64 would make him a no-brainer. In my opinion he was as good as Santo, just needed another year or two.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                            Are Schillings post-season numbers really that much better than Smoltz's?
                            Good point; not that much better. Schilling's postseason's performances are more memorable, but not that much better. Both of these guys performances were amazing in the postseason. Either way, I'd put both in the Hall of Fame.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ken Boyer- 3. Solid player for a over a decade and a great glove. Borderline 2 for me; doesn't get my HoF vote
                              Mickey Lolich- 1 nothing special outside of 200 wins and 300 strikeout season
                              John Franco- 4. I'm a supporter in HoF candidacy for superior relievers
                              Marty Marion- 1. Not even close.
                              Mike Donlin- 1. Really good years off and on over a too short of a career.
                              Joe Torre (player)- 5. Made solid adjustments to three positions while giving a great offensive performance. Certainly a better pick than Ray Schalk.
                              Jose Cruz Sr- 2 or 3. Nothing more than a good player for young Astros
                              Jimmy Ryan- 2. Better than I thought but still can't see him as a HoFer.
                              Gary Sheffield- 4. Lousy defender and PED use, but it's hard to deny his hitting over such a long span. Can see him as a 3 and wouldn't lose any sleep if he never makes it.
                              Kenny Lofton- 2. Baserunning doesn't constitute HoF for me. Neither does inflated defensive stats because of ability to make out due to speed.
                              Bobby Abreu- 3. Surprisingly good fielder, but his biggest years were coming during such an offensive time. BB up until 2006 helped by the tiny strike zone enforced by umps during this time.
                              Tommy Leach-2. Not enough output.
                              Jeff Kent- 4. More built for third base IMO. Nevertheless, good hitter, though during an offensive time. Wouldn't be surprised if he was a user. If so, he moves to 3 and is out of my Hall.
                              John McGraw (player)- 2. Got on base a lot and took advantage of the hitting 1890s. Doesn't stick with me because he played too many partial seasons.
                              Milt Pappas- 1. Similar to Lolich in career value.
                              Harold Baines- 1. Poor fielder with a good stick. Benefited from DH.
                              Dave Parker- 3. A player I admire. Never had that sustained "oomph" to push him into the Hall.
                              Bill Dahlen- 5. Too good to be denied.
                              John Smoltz- 5. Success as a starter and closer.
                              Curt Schilling- 4. Only thing keeping him from a 5 is the fact that he didn't get cooking until 1995. Still has my HoF vote
                              Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 09-30-2012, 11:03 AM.
                              "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

                              Comment

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