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Do any of these guys have Hall of Fame arguments? Part IV

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  • Do any of these guys have Hall of Fame arguments? Part IV

    In order to shave some names off my list of possible Hall of Fame threads, I decided to up my minimum WAR requirement to 20. It used to be 10.

    Contrary to popular belief, not just anybody makes my exclusive and illustrious list of potential Hall of Fame poll subjects. The following 10 players, because they have less than 20 career WAR, will not have polls made for them. So, I thought I'd make one super-thread, where you can discuss the Hall of Fame worthiness or lack thereof of these players.

    I've included various bits of information, including notable achievements, black ink/grey ink, similar players, statistics, Hall of Fame performance and various Baseball Fever project performances for each.

    Rick Aguilera - 19.1 WAR

    Playing career: 1985-2000
    Position: Relief pitcher
    Notable statistics: 318 SV, 3.57 ERA in 732 games, 86-81 W-L, 8.6 K/9 IP
    League leader: Pitcher fielding percentage, 1986
    Black ink/grey ink: 0/27
    Similar players: Doug Jones, Bob Wickman, Dave Righetti, Jeff Reardon, Roberto Hernandez, Roy Face, Steve Bedrosian, Bruce Sutter, Jason Isringhausen, Bill Campbell
    Notable playoff performances: 0.00 ERA in 1986 NLCS; 1.29 ERA in 7 IP in 1988 NLCS; 5 SV in 1991 playoffs (1 ER in 8.1 IP); 2-1, 2.63 ERA in 15 career appearances
    Awards: Three All-Star selections
    Hall of Fame voting performance: 0.6% of the vote in 2006
    Other stuff: Won two World Series with the New York Mets (1986) and the Minnesota Twins (1991)
    Fan EloRater rank: 431

    Babe Dahlgren - 2.7 WAR

    Playing career: 1935-1946
    Position: First baseman
    Notable statistics: .261 BA, 1056 H, 569 RBI
    League leader: Games played twice, defensive putouts once, 1B fielding percentage once
    Black ink/grey ink: 2/22
    Similar players: Wes Parker, Carlos May, Dan Meyer, Travis Lee, Pat Tabler, Glenn Wilson, Jerry Morales, Bobby Tolan, Sam Mele, Danny Cater
    Awards: One All-Star selection
    Hall of Fame voting performance: 1 vote in Progessive Hall of Fame project
    Other stuff: Won two World Series with the New York Yankees (1938 & 1939)
    Fan EloRater rank: 1544

    Keith Foulke - 19.8 WAR

    Playing career: 1997-2006, 2008
    Position: Relief pitcher
    Notable statistics: 191 SV, 3.33 ERA in 619 games, 140 ERA+, 41-37 W-L
    League leader: Games finished twice, saves once
    Black ink/grey ink: 3/15
    Similar players: Gregg Olson, Jeff Brantley, Jeff Shaw, Rod Beck, Ugueth Urbina, Jay Howell, Mike Henneman, Dave Veres, Eric Gagne, Bobby Thigpen
    Notable playoff performances: 0.00 ERA in 2004 ALDS; 0.00 ERA in 5 games in 2004 ALCS; 1-0, 1.80 ERA in 2004 WS; 2.35 ERA, 3 SV in 16 career games
    Awards: One All-Star selection, 2003 AL Rolaids Relief Award, 2004 AL Babe Ruth Award, 2004 Reliever of the Year
    Other stuff: Won a World Series with the Boston Red Sox in 2004
    Fan EloRater rank: 438

    Bill Hallman - 4.6 WAR

    Playing career: 1888-1898, 1901-1903
    Position: Second baseman
    Notable statistics: .272 BA, 1,641 H, 201 SB
    League leader: Sacrifice hits once, games once, 2B F% once
    Black ink/grey ink: 1/20
    Similar players: Lou Bierbauer, Claude Ritchey, Billy Shindle, Hughie Critz, Johnny Evers, Joe Quinn, George Cutshaw, Harry Steinfeldt, Tom Herr, Dave Cash. Most similar to Bucky Harris through age 30.
    Fan EloRater rank: 1413

    Lefty Leifield - 19.4 WAR

    Playing career: 1905-1913, 1918-1920
    Position: Starting pitcher
    Notable statistics: 124-97 W-L, 2.47 ERA, 115 ERA+
    Black ink/grey ink: 0/55
    Similar players: Noodles Hahn, Dummy Taylor, Harry Brecheen, Ed Killian, Dick Rudolph, Fred Toney, Howie Camnitz, Bob Ewing, Larry Cheney, Mort Cooper. Most similar to Addie Joss through age 25.
    Other stuff: Won a World Series with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1909
    Fan EloRater rank: 337

    Omar Moreno - 7.9 WAR

    Playing career: 1975-1986
    Position: Centerfielder
    Notable statistics: .252 BA, 1,257 H, 487 SB, 699 R
    League leader: At-bats twice, plate appearances twice, triples once, stolen bases twice, CF putouts twice, CF assists once, CF games three times,
    Black ink/grey ink: 7/40
    Similar players: Bob Bescher, Jack Graney, Rick Manning, Vince Coleman, Ned Hanlon, Dave Collins, Joe Hornung, Darren Lewis, Charlie Hemphill, Rube Oldring
    Notable playoff performance: .333 BA, 11 hits in 1979 WS
    Other stuff: Won a World Series with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1979
    Fan EloRater: 1165

    Jake Powell - (-)2.3 WAR

    Playing career: 1930, 1934-1940, 1943-1945
    Position: Outfielder
    Notable statistics: .271 BA, 689 H, 22 HR
    Black ink/grey ink: 0/4
    Similar players: Johnny Rucker, Larry Twitcher, Endy Chavez, Mike McCormick, Earl McNeely, Rudy Law, Bert Haas, Quinton McCracken, Mel Almada, Jimmy Wasden
    Notable playoff performances: .455 BA, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 10 H in 1936 WS
    Hall of Fame voting performance: 1 vote in Progessive Hall of Fame project
    Other stuff: Won four World Series with the New York Yankees (1936, 1937, 1938 & 1939)

    Johnny Roseboro - 19.6 WAR

    Playing career: 1957-1970
    Position: Catcher
    Notable statistics: .249 BA, 1,206 H, 104 HR
    League leader: Games at C once, C putouts four times, caught stealing twice
    Black ink/grey ink: 0/2
    Similar players: Johnny Edwards, Jim Hegan, Frankie Hayes, Alan Ashby, Rick Dempsey, Bob O'Farrell, Butch Wynegar, Terry Kennedy, Mike Scioscia, Dan Wilson
    Notable playoff performances: .286 BA, three RBI in 1965 WS
    Awards: Six All-Star selections, two Gold Gloves
    Other stuff: Won three World Series with the Los Angeles Dodgers (1959, 1963 & 1965)
    Fan EloRater rank: 666

    Norm Siebern - 19.0 WAR

    Playing career: 1956, 1958-1968
    Position: First baseman/outfielder
    Notable statistics: .272 BA, 1,217 H, 132 HR, 636 RBI, 662 R, 117 OPS+
    League leader: Games once, TOB once, 1B putouts once, LF F% once
    Black ink/grey ink: 3/47
    Similar players: Gary Ward, Jim Northrup, Bob Skinner, Hector Lopez, Steve Kemp, Willard Marshall, Matt Lawton, Tito Francona, Mel Hall, Sixto Lezcano
    Notable playoff performances: .333 BA in 1967 WS
    Awards: Four All-Star selections, one Gold Glove
    Other stuff: Won two World Series with the New York Yankees (1956 & 1958)
    Fan EloRater rank: 784

    Paul Splittorff - 19.5 WAR

    Playing career: 1970-1984
    Position: Starting pitcher
    Notable statistics: 166-143 W-L, 3.81 ERA, 88 CG
    League leader: Fielding percentage, three times
    Black ink/grey ink: 0/26
    Similar players: Bob Forsch, Mike Flanagan, Jim Lonborg, Bill Gullickson, Scott Sanderson, Frank Killen, Vern Law, Doug Drabek, Frank Viola, Bill Sherdel
    Notable playoff performances: 1-0, 1.93 ERA in 1976 ALCS; 1-0, 2.40 ERA in 1977 ALCS; 1.69 ERA in 1980 ALCS
    Hall of Fame voting performance: On 1990 ballot, received no votes.
    Fan EloRater rank: 339
    36
    Rick Aguilera
    2.78%
    1
    Babe Dahlgren
    2.78%
    1
    Keith Foulke
    2.78%
    1
    Bill Hallman
    2.78%
    1
    Lefty Leifield
    2.78%
    1
    Omar Moreno
    2.78%
    1
    Jake Powell
    2.78%
    1
    Johnny Roseboro
    2.78%
    1
    Norm Seiburn
    2.78%
    1
    Paul Splittorff
    5.56%
    2
    None of the above
    69.44%
    25

  • #2
    WAR didn't enter into my judgement, but looking after the fact, two things:

    1. The fact that all of them are below 20 pretty much cements their non-HOF status.

    2. The players in the 19's are the most impressive players on the list.

    Comment


    • #3
      I was kinda surprised Keith Foulke got a 19 war. There's no way any of em are hofers though.
      "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

      "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

      Comment


      • #4
        Why isn't OPS+ mentioned? I thought every single poster here uses OPS+ in every post, every thread, every forum.
        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          Why isn't OPS+ mentioned? I thought every single poster here uses OPS+ in every post, every thread, every forum.
          Not true that's only for the hitters. It's ERA+ for pitchers.

          As for the players the best description would be that some had 1-3 seasons that, at least by back of the baseball card standards, could fit in to a HOF players prime.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
            Not true that's only for the hitters. It's ERA+ for pitchers.

            As for the players the best description would be that some had 1-3 seasons that, at least by back of the baseball card standards, could fit in to a HOF players prime.
            If by some you mean maybe 2 or 3 and if by could fit, you mean in an off year for a HOFer.

            No one on this list is close. Johnny Roseboro might qualify as top 50 at his position not in the HOF and is the best of the lot.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jake Powell is not in the top 2000 (fan elo rating) of all time. He has a -2.3 career WAR and a -10.2 WAA. He only cracked 1.0 in offensive oWAR once in his career and had a whopping 81 OPS+ as an outfielder.

              He is also notorious for being the first player to be suspended for making a racial slur on public radio:

              http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sp...well.html?_r=0

              Why even ask about him? There are at least 2000 players more worth the time than him.
              Last edited by jjpm74; 10-22-2012, 02:23 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Cowtipper, I am genuinely curious as to why you included Powell. There are a thousand reasons not to; what is the one?
                46 wins to match last year's total

                Comment


                • #9
                  No.

                  ..........
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                    Why isn't OPS+ mentioned? I thought every single poster here uses OPS+ in every post, every thread, every forum.
                    Come on CCN. OPS+ is so 2007. It's all about WAR these day, baby!
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                      Cowtipper, I am genuinely curious as to why you included Powell. There are a thousand reasons not to; what is the one?
                      I have statistical limits and various criteria as to which players I consider. Somehow, he met one of those criteria, though I have no idea which one it was or how.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                        Why isn't OPS+ mentioned? I thought every single poster here uses OPS+ in every post, every thread, every forum.
                        Come on dude...let speeping dogs lie!
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                          I have statistical limits and various criteria as to which players I consider. Somehow, he met one of those criteria, though I have no idea which one it was or how.
                          I'll hazard a guess -- his playing on four WS winners.

                          Imagine Luis Sojo, but racist.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                            I'll hazard a guess -- his playing on four WS winners.

                            Imagine Luis Sojo, but racist.
                            Sojo was a better player.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                              Not true that's only for the hitters. It's ERA+ for pitchers.
                              Except Don Drysdale.
                              Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                              Comment

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